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Jul-29-07
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| amuralid: <M.D. Wilson: The Prof. played into Capa's hands.> Capa's games always give you that feeling. |
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Jul-29-07
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| LIFE Master AJ: I thought that this game looked familiar.
I have a page devoted to "The Best, Short Games of Chess." (miniatures) See this page (http://www.geocities.com/lifemaster...) for the links. On that page, you can find this link. (http://www.lifemasteraj.com/old_af-...) |
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| Jul-29-07 |
| wouldpusher: <in reinfeld's capablanca's best games the opponent is called Tanerow> A 1950's Colliers encyclopedia article on chess that I have read years ago featured this game as an example. Black is named "Tanerow" in the game, and the opening sequence of the game reads differently. The first seven moves went (in descriptive notation) 1. P-K4 P-K4 2. N-KB3 N-QB3 3. B-N5 N-B3 4. 0-0 P-Q3 5. P-Q4 B-Q2 6. N-B3 B-K2 7. R-K1 PxP, etc. The article even made a mistake in the notation, stating 3. B-QN5 instead of the proper B-N5. <amuralid> <I think the important move for me to learn is 11. Qc3. It creates a weakness on the d6> The move per se does not create any weakness on d6; it was the ... c6 move which left d6 inadequately defended and technically, left the d-pawn backward, making it a juicy target for Capa's attack. If it's the immediate xc7 threat you're looking at, then Black can respond by ... c8, winning the Knight. |
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Jul-29-07
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| SwitchingQuylthulg: <<in reinfeld's capablanca's best games the opponent is called Tanerow> A 1950's Colliers encyclopedia article on chess that I have read years ago featured this game as an example. Black is named "Tanerow" in the game> The year seems to be even more in doubt than the spelling of Black player's name. I can easily recall 1903 and 1910 and I'm pretty sure I've seen other dates I don't remember at the moment... All this unclarity seems to suggest that this game may not have been played at all - why otherwise so much confusion - but this is just a hypothesis with no proof at all. The only thing agreed upon seems to be that this game was played by Capa as White in New York. |
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Jul-29-07
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| Karpova: <SwitchingQuylthulg: The year seems to be even more in doubt than the spelling of Black player's name. I can easily recall 1903 and 1910 and I'm pretty sure I've seen other dates I don't remember at the moment... All this unclarity seems to suggest that this game may not have been played at all - why otherwise so much confusion - but this is just a hypothesis with no proof at all. The only thing agreed upon seems to be that this game was played by Capa as White in New York.> Yes, no evidence to support this hypothesis at all.
Actually, the unreliable <Encyclopaedia of Chess Middlegames (Chess Informant, Belgrade, 1980)> gave the date as 1904 and Eric Schiller copied it for his <The Big Book of Combinations (Hypermodern Press, San Francisco, 1994)>. http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/...
The wrong date can be found in <World Champion Combinations> by none other than Eric Schiller and Ray Keene also.
http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/...
But there's no doubt that this game took place and the date is also not uncertain. If you want to know more about it look at this article:
http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... |
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Jul-29-07
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| Calli: <SwitchingQuylthulg> See http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... |
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Jul-29-07
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| SwitchingQuylthulg: <Karpova, Calli>: Thanks for the link. It certainly does give the impression of someone being right. Personally, I'm still not sure the game was played - you surely know there are some very nice hoax games from that period, best known among them Alekhine vs NN, 1915 - but at least I now know that if it is real, this database's got it right. |
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Jul-29-07
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| Karpova: Regarding the Alekhine game:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~timkr/chess/a...
Alekhine's actions don't have anything to do with Capablanca. |
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Jul-29-07
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| SwitchingQuylthulg: <Alekhine's actions don't have anything to do with Capablanca.> I know they don't, and I know Tim Krabbé's page better than my own pockets. I'm not trying to make anyone believe this game's not real. This game being spurious is a bit like God - a nice story that explains some confusing issues but which nobody should take too seriously. |
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Jul-29-07
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| Calli: <SwitchingQuylthulg> The game was published the same week as played with all details given. You must have a specific reason for doubting its provenance. |
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Jul-29-07
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| SwitchingQuylthulg: <Calli> I have already said it is an irrational view and that nobody requires you to see any sense in it. Irrational views require no logical reasons to back them up. |
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Jul-29-07
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| Calli: From the <SwitchingQuylthulg> profile "The one thing I dislike here are people who call theirselves "logical", "sensible" or "intellectual", yet never base what they say or think on logic or facts" I think there is room for a conspiracy theory for this game. Hermann Helms' original publication of the game says "Mrs Leon Rosen, who, fortunately, took and preserved the score for the benefit of posterity". This is bit silly since Capablanca or Fonaroff could have easily supplied the score from memory. Helms could just have used this as a device to get Mrs. Rosen's name in the paper. And it makes a good story. Or, perhaps, Mrs Rosen could provide "cover" for Helms if the score was, shall we say, not quite accurate. What if Fonaroff actually played 18...Qa5 and the glorious combination was only revealed by Capa in the post-mortem? Helms could claim that Mrs. Rosen had erred while taking down the score. |
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Jul-29-07
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| SwitchingQuylthulg: Exactly. There is room for a conspiracy theory, and the one thing most conspiracy theories have in common is that they have very little evidence for it. But artists want to create art; what's the point of being an artist if you don't? Quoting Alekhine: "I would like to be able to create alone, without the necessity, as in games, of adjusting my plans to those of the opponent, in order to create something that will remain. Oh! this opponent, this collaborator against his will, whose notion of Beauty always differs from yours and whose means (strength, imagination, technique) are often too limited to help you effectively! What torment, to have your thinking and your phantasy tied down by another person!" A proper opponent plays 18...Rd1 and and doesn't tie down Capa's brilliant mind. Great artists, Alekhine in particular, occasionally fixed the errors of those unthinking, selfish opponents who failed to co-operate. Then again, is there anything wrong with it? Great art is created and the chess world is richer for it. Think of this one, for example.  click for larger viewCapablanca-Lasker, Berlin 1914. White wins with the ingenious 1.Ra8+!! It's a beautiful idea, who cares it's just post-mortem? Perhaps all the pointless shouting on the Chessgames Challenge page is awakening the irrational side in me. CG.com, while a great site, is sure having a bad effect on me. :( |
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| Jul-29-07 |
| Petrosianic: >>It's a beautiful idea, who cares it's just post-mortem?>> Quite so. But doesn't that contradict your defense of Alekhine; that he only falsified data in order to create great art? As you admit yourself, it's still great art even if we know that it's only post-mortem. |
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| Jul-29-07 |
| wouldpusher: <SwitchingQuylthulg> Although the year in which the encyclopedia was published was dated as 1956, the sample game (Capablanca vs ???) in the article did not indicate any date in which the game itself was played. Collier's Encyclopedia, Volume 5 (Cha-Cop) with E.O.Fontaine as director of publications and W.T.Couch as editor-in-chief. (P.F. Collier and Son Corporation, New York 1956) The sample game can be found in pages 97-99. The article was contributed by Geoffrey Mott-Smith. |
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Jul-30-07
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| SwitchingQuylthulg: <Quite so. But doesn't that contradict your defense of Alekhine; that he only falsified data in order to create great art? As you admit yourself, it's still great art even if we know that it's only post-mortem.> I don't know if Alekhine only falsified data for great art; a little fame never hurts. But I see no contradiction as I'm not accusing Alekhine or Capa or any other master of absolutely any period of anything - is it a crime to make chess world richer? (OK, if someone's caught cheating with a computer, I won't like it, even if it makes his games better. Perhaps that's slightly illogical. I guess I only hold this opinion because computer help attacks the very soul of chess. Which, as has been known for a long time, is not the pawn, but the blunder.) |
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Jul-30-07
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| Karpova: <SwitchingQuylthulg>
Why do you go as far as to single out this game anyway? Capablanca sometimes played dry chess but he was also very strong tactically. So why not go for a nice combination against a weaker player? It's not like the Alekhine game you brought up with those insane five queens all around. But here the combination doesn't look too strange considering a (then) future Worldchampion played it. But Capablanca would start to create art in exhibition games after 1930 as Steiner claims he played only prearranged games at that time (after 1930): http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... |
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Jul-30-07
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| SwitchingQuylthulg: <Karpova: Why do you go as far as to single out this game anyway?> This happens to be the talking place of this single game. And as <Calli> pointed out, the details easily give room for this to be post-mortem. Any game could be prearranged; such games are almost impossible to point out. As for the Steiner game, Black's play was nothing like excellent; prearrangement would explain that nicely but on the other hand, it's also a good excuse for having played poorly. If I got blown off the board like that I'd sure try to come up with an excuse. Always doubt everything, and never let yourself become paranoid. |
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Jul-30-07
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| SwitchingQuylthulg: <Karpova> No further questions please. I have already stated that to believe this game is spurious is an irrational view and not much sensible, logical backup can be found for it; indeed, if such backup could be found, without having much proof of the opposite, it would be, by its very definition, a rational view. |
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Jul-30-07
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| Karpova: <SwitchingQuylthulg: Any game could be prearranged; such games are almost impossible to point out.>
That's why I was asking. One can always find a reason to come up with conspiracy theories. There's also some madman believing that whole Worldchampionship matches were prearranged, for example. <Always doubt everything, and never let yourself become paranoid.>
Yes, and as long as someone doesn't present facts or at least some indications why should I believe him? |
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Jul-30-07
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| SwitchingQuylthulg: <Yes, and as long as someone doesn't present facts or at least some indications why should I believe him?> You shouldn't. It would be very stupid. |
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| Aug-10-08 |
| Morphyisgod: wow freaking amazing accuracy |
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| Jan-15-09 |
| M.D. Wilson: This was a blindfold game. |
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| Feb-24-09 |
| WhiteRook48: knight fork and back rank! Nice game by Capablanca! |
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| Nov-19-09 |
| Whitehat1963: My favorite bit of Capablanca's tactical wizardry. Happy birthday, Jose! |
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