|Jun-14-04|| ||morphynoman2: A good puzzle. Position after 33. b6 Black plays and wins... |
|Jun-15-04|| ||catfriend: Yep:)
33.b6 :e3!! 34.b7 c2 35.b8= c1=#
|Jun-15-04|| ||acirce: <Position after 33. b6 Black plays and wins...> Well, pretty much any knight move would do that. |
|Jun-15-04|| ||catfriend: Why?! 33..a3? 34.b7 c2 35.b8= c1=+ 36.g2 is far from finished! White threatens e5+ with perpetual check! That's the whole strength of 33..:e3!! - it shuts g2 for the white king. |
|Jun-15-04|| ||acirce: I don't think it even threatens perp but it would be easy to prevent it anyway. |
|Jun-15-04|| ||catfriend: Without preventing, it IS a perp. And, generally, though the game is still won for black, :e3 is by far, very far the best and shortest path. |
|Jun-15-04|| ||acirce: <Without preventing, it IS a perp.> Nope; 37. Qe5+ Kf7 38. Qd5+ Kf6 and you are already out of checks.|
<though the game is still won for black, Nxe3 is by far, very far the best and shortest path.> Yeah, so it should be "What is black's best move?", not "Black to move and win".
|Jun-15-04|| ||catfriend: What about 39.d4+ ?
You're right about "Black to move and win", though, as <minor piece activity> writes in his collection, it's really nearly the same. To me, when I see "to move and win", it automatically means the shortest way.
|Jun-15-04|| ||acirce: Oops, I meant to add 39. Qd4+ Ke6. That is the end of checks.|
<To me, when I see "to move and win", it automatically means the shortest way.> Well that is wrong.
|Jun-15-04|| ||catfriend: Once again, 40.b6+
As you see, with a3 black is far from winning on the spot. I even doubt if one can call this a winning move at all! Surely, if you have a way to win in few moves or in 20, the first is to be chosen and to be considered the winning one!
|Jun-15-04|| ||catfriend: To shorten things, you"ll say me now 40.b6+ d7 41.b7+ c7 and if 42.b5+?? then 42..c6+ 0-1.
But who said I have to do everything to get a perp, in this case? I can, then, just eat b4, attacking the knight and threatening a new series of checks. |
|Jun-15-04|| ||acirce: Alright, alright, 40...Kf7! :D THAT should settle things. Apologies. |
|Jun-16-04|| ||catfriend: 40..f7 brings you back to move 37! Then again d5+ |
|Jun-16-04|| ||acirce: The queen is on b6 then and can't reach d5. 40.Qb6+ Kf7. |
|Jun-16-04|| ||catfriend: You're right, but after 41.:b4 the game proceeds and will continue doing so for a long-long time... I'm not sure it's even won... maybe after 20+ moves... You call it a winning move? |
|Jun-16-04|| ||acirce: Of course it is won, Black is knight up.
Btw, I looked at <Minor Piece Activity> and his comment you mentioned, and it reads <I've heard all these silly arguments about how it should be "Black to play and win" or "White to play and draw" or "White to play and keep material," but it is all junk to me. I think all that is necessary is "Black to play [and make *the best move*]." A good player should be able to figure out whether "the best move" leads to keeping material, a mate in X, gaining material, drawing the game, etc. That's how real games are anyway.> That is hardly the same as to say "Black to play to win" automatically means "Black to play to win in the shortest way".
|Jun-16-04|| ||catfriend: It means that the target is to find the best move! The shortest is the best! And a knight up in the endgame is far from meaning immediate victory. |
|Jun-16-04|| ||acirce: No, "Black plays and wins" still does not mean "Find the best move". It means "Find the winning move". |
|Jun-16-04|| ||catfriend: <I think all that is necessary is "Black to play [and make <*the best move*>]." A good player should be able to figure out whether "the best move" leads to keeping material, a mate in X, gaining material, drawing the game, etc.?> |
|Jun-17-04|| ||acirce: <Minor Piece Activity> does not claim that a simple English sentence means something different than it seems. His argument is that the title of a puzzle should always be "Black to play and make the best move". Anyway, this is not that important... |