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| Dec-09-03 | | mymt: Yes DWINS is right its much the same after 25...Qe7.Nice guy that Tony Miles,sad,meet him once when he came down to NZ to play . |
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| Dec-09-03 | | patzer2: If 25...Qxh6, Fritz 8 gives <nateinstein>'s suggestion of 26. cxb6! (#12 @ 13/59 depth & 811kN/s) as best, with White putting Black into an immediate mating web. However, <JSYantiss>'s suggested 26. Qf3+! c6 27. bxc6 also wins big(+17.69 @ 14/14 depth & 805kN/s). |
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| Dec-09-03 | | patzer2: Miles 10. 0-0! is possible because the knight on f7 is still untouchable, since 10...Kxf7? drops the Black queen after 11. Bg6+. Interestingly, Fritz 8 indicates Miles could have won with 10. Nxh8!?, though it is more complicated and risks throwing away the win. So, 10. 0-0! is a more practical choice than 10. Nxh8!?. For those interested, Fritz 8 gives a winning White line as 10. Nxh8!? Bxc6+ 11. bxc6 Qxc6+ 12. Bd2 Qxd3 13. Qh5+ g6 14. Qxh7 Ne7 15. Qf7+ Kd8 16. Rd1 Nd7 [not 16...Bxg2 17. Bg5! ] 17. f3 Qf5 [not 17...Qxc4? 18. Nxg6!! (for if 18...NxN 19. Bg5+) ] 18. Bc3 Bc6 19. Kf2 Qxf7 20. Nxf7+ Ke8 21. Ng5 e5 22. Rhe1 Ba4 23. Rd2 and white with the exchange up and better position is winning (+2.87 @ 14 depth & 736kN/s). |
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| Dec-09-03 | | patzer2: Miles handling of the opening was interesting, as 2. Nc3 already starts to steer the game into less explored lines. While black's response 2...e6 is sound, but my own personal preference is the more popular 2...e5 response, giving Black good play as in P Kotsur vs Morozevich, 2003 (same position reached by transposition via 1. c4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6). Mile's 3. e4 really starts to get away from the more popular choices, denying Black the opportunity to go into the Nimzo-Indian with 3. d4 Bb4. Black's response 3...b6?! almost completely gets off the beaten path, with the only other game in the Chessgames.Com database being another decisive win for White in Karpov vs H Schmidhauser, 1988 Better for Black here I think is the more frequently played 3...d5 as for example in Ian Rogers vs Campora, 1989 Also, 3...c5 might be even more worthy of consideration as in the draws secured in Zvjaginsev vs Leitao, 2001 and Anand vs Michael Adams, 1997 and Bologan vs Vallejo Pons, 2002 or the nice black win in Topalov vs Leko, 2002 (via the transposition
1. Nf3 c5 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. Nf6). Also, 3...Nc6 may be possible, as in Adorjan vs V McCambridge, 1984 and the lack of experience in this line may give black a chance to get white out of the book early. So, what should black have done different early in the opening. I think he should have played 2...e4 (even though 2...e6 is perfectly OK) and having missed that chance 3...c5 or 3...d5 or 3..Nf6. Note that Kasparov and Keene in BCO give all three of these third moves as leading to equality. In addition BCO lists another interesting possibility in 3...e5!? 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. d4 ed 6. Nxd4 Bb4 7. f3 0-0 8. Be3 Re8 9. Qd2 Bxc3 10. Qxc3 Nxe4 11. fe Qh4+ as leading to an unclear position as in Caramling-Hess, Reggio Emilia 1979/80. However, after 12. Kd2! Nxd4 13. Qxd4 Rxe4 14. Qd5 d6 15. Qg5 Qxg5 16. Bxg5 Be6 17. Be2 Re5 18. Be3 Re8 19. Bd4 in this line, Fritz 8 gives White a winning advantage (+1.56 @ 14/47 depth & 686kN/s). However, with two pawns for a bishop, black may still have drawing chances. |
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| Dec-09-03 | | talchess2003: Patzer, your Karpov vs H Schmidhauser, 1998 game is a complete joke. Instead of picking games from the database, actually look at it :P Black hangs like 4 of his pieces. Karpov was at a simul playing against a beginner. How can you use this as evidence supporting your 'theory' about e6? Anyways, I prefer e6. I also have seen it much more often.. Are you sure e5 is played more? Did you get that from actual statistics? I believe e6 gives black more play. Black plays for an eventual d5 or b5 push in this variation. It often turns into the symmetrical english. The move e5 just becomes a tough and boring fight over the d4 and d5 squares... at least, in my opinion. |
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| Dec-09-03 | | talchess2003: Here's a Tal game, where he is black and playing against the English and where he plays the move e6, followed by d5 shortly. Tal 'slices and dices' Saigin with a powerful isolated pawn and accurate play leading to an attack. V Saigin vs Tal, 1954 |
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| Dec-09-03 | | talchess2003: On move 8 is a perfect example of the situations where greediness can lead to demise. On the contrast, computers are always greedy, and they rarely reach their demise. It is the power of the microchip over the brain, no emotion and no relent. BTW... On 8. Bxg2 you can see my above post and comment. |
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| Dec-09-03 | | Kurov: (a) 9. Rg1 Bb7 10. Qh5 Qe7 11. Bg6?? fxg6 12. Nxg6 Nf6 
11... Qf7 is Illegal Move. |
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| Dec-10-03 | | Spitecheck: Karpov actually plays a very similar black system to this (or did). And as for the method he chooses with the white pieces in a simul against Schmidhauser I'm not sure it would mean much. Karpov was typically Karpov though in that game regardless of his opponent's level. Bg5/Be3 has all his trademarks. Karpov is a big fan of the QID, and the b6/e6 systems in general (tartakover), but he prefers with exceptions the systems where white does not immediately (is allowed to) play e4, d4, c4 creating a central pawn front. In other words he does not find the English Defense (1. e4 b6) to his liking. Korchnoi vs Karpov, 1974
Spitecheck |
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| Dec-10-03 | | patzer2: The Karpov game was cited because it is the only other game in the database with 3...b6 (and although poor quality, it at least indicates Karpov's plan in the opening for countering 3...b6). I don't have a theory about 3...b6, just a generalization that I personally am wary of opening novelties that (1) have not proved successful, (2) have been ignored by strong players in general and (3) appear inferior to other choices--and that appears to be the case with 3...b6.
As for 2...e6 I said the move was sound and OK, and in most cases White will be happy to transpose into the Nimzo-Indian, which is very playable for Black. I just personally prefer to play 2...e5 in response to 1. c4, especially since I don't particularly enjoy playing the Nimzo-Indian as Black. The opening explorer indicates 2...e6 was played in 1,405 games with a 17.7% win percentage, while 2...e5 was played in 2,158 games with a 27.1% win percentage. Note that the game I cited for an example of play with 2...e5 was from one of Morozevich's and not the Karpov game. Note that in the games I pick from the database, I try to pick games meeting the following criteria: (1) Games with strong GMs agains strong GMs are preferred. (2) Games that are as recent as possible are preferred. (3) Games that follow the theoretically strongest moves in the opening are preferred. However, where the number of games in a line are limited, or only one, I may not be able to meet that criteria. |
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| Dec-10-03 | | euripides: After 8... bxg2 I like the look of 9Rg1 Bb7 10 Bg5. If 10...Be7 White can exchange bishops and take the g pawn. If 10... Nf6 White could try 11 Qa4+ when the Bkack queen is getting overoaded protecting d7 and f6., and after 11 ...c6 White could consider 12 Be4. |
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| Dec-10-03 | | patzer2: <Spitecheck> Thanks for the Korchnoi vs. Karpov game. Karpov's move order against Korchnoi is similar to Black's play against Miles here. If Miles had chosen to play 4. Nf3, then he could have transposed into the line in the Korchoi vs. Miles game. However, Miles move order with 3. e4 avoids Karpov's strategy in this game by allowing him to play 4. e5 in response to 3...b3, which forcs the retreat of the knight back to g8 (losing opening tempo) and making 3...b3 much more problematic for Black. So my conclusion is that while 3...b3 may be good for Black after 1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e6 3. Nf3, it looks good for White after 1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e6 3. e4. |
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| Dec-10-03 | | Spitecheck: Karpov and Korchnoi played that variation 3 times in their 1974 Candidates Final. Alot of players have picked on Karpov with variations similar to this. Miles, Timman and Korchnoi being particularly forthright in their attempts to get Karpov in a position he is unfamiliar with or does not like (ie not a "Karpov" type of position). These little dogfights over move orders and transpositions can be quite fascinating. BTW Karpov has little sympathy for this opening for white as far as I can tell, I was doing some research I might post it later if I remember it and an so inclined (I should have written it down LOL). Spitecheck |
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| Dec-10-03 | | talchess2003: <(a) 9. Rg1 Bb7 10. Qh5 Qe7 11. Bg6??fxg6 12. Nxg6 Nf6 11... Qf7 is Illegal Move.> I meant after fxg6 Nxg6, sorry. But isn't that kinda obvious, cant you guys get the point, rather than have to be annoying about it and point it out consistently? |
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| Dec-10-03 | | talchess2003: <After 8... bxg2 I like the look of 9Rg1 Bb7 10 Bg5. If 10...Be7 White can exchange bishops and take the g pawn. If 10... Nf6 White could try 11 Qa4+ when the Bkack queen is getting overoaded protecting d7 and f6., and after 11 ...c6 White could consider 12 Be4.> another interesting variation:
(a) 9. Rg1 Bb7 10. Qh5 Qe7 11. Bg6 fxg6 12. Nxg6 Qf7 13. Qb5+ Bc6 14. Nxh8 (b) 9. Rg1 Bb7 10. Qh5 g6 11. Bxg6 |
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| Dec-10-03 | | talchess2003: Commentary on this line anybody? Sorry, I must clarify, these lines are all after 8... Bxg2 |
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| Dec-10-03 | | Spitecheck: <Tal Chess> Did you consider 9. Be4?! Bxh1 10. Bxh1 c6 Qf3 etc. I haven't really got time to look at the lines. I will later on. Spitecheck |
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| Dec-10-03 | | Spitecheck: I prefer the bishop exchange as black the line you suggested is not quite as clear.
Anyway gotta go.
Spitecheck |
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| Dec-10-03 | | talchess2003: Yea, after 9. Be4 Bxh1 10. Bxh1 c6 11. Nxc6 black still loses the rook. |
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| Dec-11-03 | | euripides: Talchess: it's a nice line, but I see somep roblems. 10 Qh5 Qe7 (if 10...g6 11 Rxg6 wins, not 11 Bxg6? Nf6) 11 Bg6 fg 12 Nxg6 Nf6 or 12... Qf7 13 Qb5+ c6 both look OK for Black. 9Be4 could be met by 9...Bxe4 - it's still good for White, but the exchange of the white-squared bishops might slightly help Black. |
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| Dec-11-03 | | euripides: My last contains an error - if 10...g6 White should play 11Bxg6 fg 12Rxg6! winning,not 12Nxg6? Nf6. If 11..Nf6 then 12 Bxf7+; if 12 Rxg6 Nf6 then simply 13Rxf6+. |
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| Dec-11-03 | | talchess2003: Err..
9. Rg1 Bb7 10. Qh5 Qe7 11. Bg6 fxg6 12. Rxg6? Would not work Black would either play here 12... hxg6 13. Qxh8 Nh6 14. Nxg6 Qf7 15. Ne5 Qh5
this is only one lining disproving Rxg6 there are others. Now.. .in the final position you mentioned where black plays c6 9. Rg1 BB7 10. Qh5 Qe7 11. Bg6 fxg6 12. Nxg6 Qf7 13. Qb5+ c6 14. Nxh8 cxb5 15. Nxf7 White will be fine... |
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| Dec-12-03 | | euripides: Talchess -after 12Rxg6 hxg6 White can play 13 Qxg6+ with mate to follow (13..Ke7 14 Qf7+ Kd6 15 Nb5 mate).There are so some interesting lines after 13 Qxh8? when I think white is probably still winning - 13...Nh6 is met by 14 Bxh6,isn't it ? The interesting lines involve something like 13...Nf6 14 Qg8. By my count after 15 Nxf7 Kxf7 White is down two pieces to a rook - this is the difference with 13..Bc6. I prefer Black in this position. |
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| Dec-12-03 | | euripides: My last meant 13...Ne7 14 Qg8 - 13...Nf6 is better met by 14 Bg5 of course. |
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| Dec-15-03 | | Kurov: After 8... Bxg2 9. Rg1 Bb7 10. Qh5 Qe7 11. Bg6 fxg6 12. Nxg6,Crafty Analyze.
12. ... ♘f6 13. ♕h4 hxg6 14. ♕xh8 ♘c6 15. ♗g5 O-O-O 16. O-O-O ♘xd4 17. ♕h3 ♕b4 18. ♗e3 ♕xc4 19. ♖xd4 ♖xd4 20. ♗xd4 ♕xd4 21. ♕xe6+
(eval -3.82; depth 16 ply; 500M nodes) |
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