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|Jan-13-12|| ||BOSTER: In spite of Heisman's advice "<picking candidates, start with checks"> ,we have clearly understand, that <all Rules> have exceptions.
I don't think that 21.Qh7+ is correct move becase this move is too obvious for puzzle ,and after this you have to <hide> your queen on g6, what means that the speed of attack is getting slow.|
In such position like <POTD> the best way to put all pressure on the "f" file at once.
|Jan-13-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <JimFromProvidence> Hey man. Good to know that you're analyzing this one with me. I actually did look at the Rf4 idea quite a bit before posting earlier. |
25. Rf4 is an excellent practical try. Black's best is 25...Nh6.
I'm still liking the simple 25. Qxd6+ though. It's still winning.
|Jan-13-12|| ||GlennOliver: Jan Timman at his best, unlocking a complex position with complete clarity.|
|Jan-13-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <BOSTER> 21. Qh7+ is a winning move, dude. Whether it is a simple move doesn't diminish the fact that if you chose 21. Qh7+ coupled with 22. Qg6 you'll have a winning game.|
|Jan-13-12|| ||sethoflagos: Doubled rooks hitting f6 in the Benoni is becoming a regular theme here!|
H Danielsen vs C Hansen, 1997
Shirov vs A Kovacevic, 1997
|Jan-13-12|| ||David2009: Timman vs C Van Wijgerden, 1979 postscript: Congratulations to <abuzic> ,<LMAJ> and <CHESSTTCAMPS> for demonstrating wins I was unable to find against Crafty EGT. I had previously discovered the start of <abuzic>'s win starting Nh4 but thought Black forced a draw in the diagram: |
click for larger view
Instead 30.g3!! <abuzic> and the White Q + N assisted by the Pd5 outplay the remaining Black army (!).
Similarly I settled for draws early on in the LMAJ/CHESSTTCAMPS variations. <LMAJ>'s win is strikingly elegant and its climax deserves a diagram:
click for larger view
(White to play and win). Feel free to consult <LMAJ>'s post for the very neat three-move solution.
In <CHESSTTCAMPS>'s line I reached an ending with Q+PPP versus RBP - but misplayed it. My passsed Pawns became blockaded and I was fortunate to exchange QP for RB to win the Pawn ending.
So far I have still not beaten the EGT starting Qh7+ and Qg6+. What am I missing?
|Jan-13-12|| ||Patriot: <BOSTER> Heisman doesn't say to always choose checks. He suggests considering checks first because they limit the opponent's responses. If checks are basically "no good", then you move on to captures, and then to threats. It isn't a rule, but more of a guideline.|
<In such position like <POTD> the best way to put all pressure on the "f" file at once.> It works in this problem but calculation cannot be based on general principles. He showed me a position yesterday where one of his student's moved based on the principle to trade while ahead. He was up a pawn and wanted to trade queens. After a little calculation, the move proved to be disastrous and loses a piece. But you are correct if you are suggesting looking at candidates based on positional considerations.
|Jan-13-12|| ||cyclon: 21.Ne5 seems to win; 21. -dxe5 ( -hxg5 22.Qg6+ Kf8 23.Rxf6+ ) 22.Qh7+ Kf8 23.Rxf6+ mates and continuation like 21. -Qc7 gets 22.Qg6+ Kf8 23.Rxf6+ Nxf6 ( -Ke7 24.Rf7+) 24.Rxf6+ Ke7 25.Rf7+ cufflinks.|
|Jan-13-12|| ||sethoflagos: <<David2009> So far I have still not beaten the EGT starting Qh7+ and Qg6+. What am I missing?>|
Try 21.Qh7+ Kf8 22.Qg6 hxg5 23.Nxg5 Nd7 24.Nh7+ Qxh7 25.Qxh7 Re5 26.Qh8 Kf7 27.h4 Rxe3 28.Qh7+ Kf8 29.h5 Rg3 30.h6 b5 31.Kh2 Rg4 32.Rf4 Ne5 33.Rxf6+ Nxf6 34.Rxf6+ Ke8 35.Rxd6 Ng6 36.Rxg6 Rxg6 37.Qxg6+ Ke7 38.h7 Bg4 39.Qg7+ Kd6 40.Qf6+ Kd7 41.Qc6+ Ke7 42.Qxa8 Kf6 43.h8=Q+ Kg5 44.Qaf8 Bd1 45.Qff6+ Kg4 46.Qhh4#
|Jan-13-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <sethoflagos and David2009>|
21.Qh7+ Kf8 22.Qg6 <Bf5> 23. Qxf5 is the critical line.
21.Qh7+ Kf8 22.Qg6 hxg5 is not Black's best defense.
Look at lines by JimFromProvidence and myself as it relates to the best possible continuations in the 22...Bf5 23. Qxf5 line.
|Jan-13-12|| ||sevenseaman: <morfishine> <<sevenseaman> This is a beautiful line starting with <21.Nh4>. I too was drawn to this move eyeing <g6> for the White Queen.|
Unfortunately, I think Black improves in your line with <21.Nh4 f5 (very good observation) 22.Rxf5? (I was tempted by this move too>...
Here, I think the improvement is <22...hxg5> instead of 22...Bxf5 since white won't get enough for the Queen...I think!!>
Fine analysis <morf>, thanks. Yes I have checked my line <21. Nh4> thoroughly and it does not work. <21...f4> and a later capture of the the N at g5 stymie it.
I am very impressed with Timman's <21. Ne5>. Only good computers will find this one (and at deeper plies which equates to a lot of time). That the great man did it <OTB> is a tribute to his brilliance. Under pressure at the board fine chess minds sometimes produce flawless gems.
<21. Ne5> didn't occur to me. Even if it had I was sure to reject it. I do not think I would have dared put both my Ns en prise. The brilliance of Timman that he knew which one would be taken.
I see a lot of good analysis by inveterate POTD aficionados. This I expected. Good.
|Jan-13-12|| ||sethoflagos: <<LoveThatJoker:> ...21.Qh7+ Kf8 22.Qg6 hxg5 is not Black's best defense.>|
Perhaps you should address your comments to Crafty (I was playing white remember):-)
Personally, I think there's so little in it, it's not worth the argument.
|Jan-13-12|| ||BOSTER: <LTJ> <21.Qh7+ is a winning move>.
I said that 21.Qh7+ is not correct for puzzle solution, I think that this move <is not appropriate> for <POTD>.|
<Patriot> <Considering checks first...it isn't a rule, but more of guideline>.
In chess the difference between <rules> and <guidelines> is very sublle.
|Jan-13-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <sethoflagos> I'm not arguing. Just telling you the truth: There is a huge difference between the 22...Bf5 line and the 22...hxg5 line. |
|Jan-13-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <BOSTER> 21. Qh7+ is correct insofar as White recognizes that there is a win after 22. Qg6. Furthermore, although it isn't the immediate crushing 21. Ne5, it is correct for the puzzle as it leads to a winning position. You can easily tell this by observing my analysis on the winning lines that follow 21. Qh7+.|
|Jan-13-12|| ||rilkefan: <<LTJ>: Furthermore, although it isn't the immediate crushing 21. Ne5>|
Stockfish thinks they're equally crushing. Though it preferred Qh7 at a depth of 33 (14 Gnodes) in my testing.
<<sevenseaman>: I am very impressed with Timman's <21. Ne5>. Only good computers will find this one (and at deeper plies which equates to a lot of time)>
Stockfish on my laptop instantly picks it as its second choice.
<Fine analysis <morf>, thanks. Yes I have checked my line <21. Nh4> thoroughly and it does not work. <21...f4> and a later capture of the the N at g5 stymie it.>
I'm confused here. After 21...f5 22.Rxf5 what does black do about Qc3?
|Jan-13-12|| ||stst: Difficulty lies not in winning, but how economical in winning for W.
Try several times, each time giving a different variation! This is one line:
26.Rxf6+ (2nd R) Qxf6 (Q lost anyway)
bed time after a long day's work!!
|Jan-13-12|| ||TheBish: Timman vs C Van Wijgerden, 1979|
White to play (21.?) "Difficult", White is down a piece for a pawn.
The key to finding the solution for me was realizing the power of the doubled rooks. The immediate queen check (21. Qh7+) is useless, but moving the knight on f3 first (to the right square) unleashes the full force of White's army, resulting in a brutal ambush of the Black king.
21. Ne5!! (threatening both 22. Qh7+ Kf8 23. Ng6# and 22. Qg6+ followed by 23. Nf7+ or 23. Nh7+) and now:
A) 21...fxe5 22. Qh7#.
B) 21...Qxe5 22. Qh7+ Kf8 23. Qf7#.
C) 21...dxe5 22. Qh7+ Kf8 23. Rxf6+ Nxf6 (or 23...Qxf6 24. Qf7+ Qxf7 25. Rxf7#) 24. Qh8#.
D) 21...fxg5 22. Rf7+ Qxf7 23. Rxf7+ Kh8 24. Qh7#.
E) 21...hxg5 22. Qg6+ Kf8 (or 22...Kh8 23. Nf7+ Qxf7 24. Qxf7 Re5 25. Rxf6! wins) 23. Rxf6+ Nxf6 24. Rxf6+ Qxf6 25. Qxf6+ Kg8 25. Qf7+ Kh8 26. Ng6#.
I think that should cover it. Interesting key move.... It's like White says, "Well, I'm down a piece, you're attacking my knight, so have another knight! Your choice of knight, with three different pawns to choose from, or your queen!" This sacrifice works because White has all his remaining pieces fully developed, while Black's queenside pieces are "sleeping".
|Jan-13-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <rilkefan> Interesting note regarding 21. Qh7+ and Stockfish's assessment.|
Could you be so kind to post some lines regarding it? It would be lovely to see what Stockfish thinks about it.
|Jan-14-12|| ||M.Hassan: "Difficult" White to play 21.?
White is down by a Bishop for a pawn
Acheck by Queen is easy to spot and I go for that:
24.Ne6+ Qxe6 (forced)
White is stronger and has the winning chance
Time to check
I could never think that the puzzle solution starts with 21.Ne5
|Jan-14-12|| ||sevenseaman: <rilkefan> <22...Bxf5 23. Qxf5 gxh4> and White has no case.|
|Jan-14-12|| ||rilkefan: <Could you be so kind to post some lines regarding it?>|
I don't know what more there is to say than black plays ...Bf5 as a distraction to avoid Nh7 but after Ne6 and Qc8 white's attack is Q+2R+N vs Q+N in effect, simply reflected in the evaluation of +9 at a depth of 30. Aside from 22.Qg6 this is just a caveman line as far as I can tell.
|Jan-14-12|| ||rilkefan: <<sevenseaman>: <rilkefan> <22...Bxf5 23. Qxf5 gxh4>|
I'm confused - haven't you given Black an extra move (...hxg5)? Anyway, 23.Nxf5+ winning the queen seems the way to go.
|Jan-14-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <rilkefan> So you are saying that Stockfish goes in for the 22...Bf5 line JimFromProvidence and myself have already analyzed?|
Cool. Good to know. It still would be nice to see how it continues - if you can post a line or two, it would be much appreciated.
|Jan-14-12|| ||kevin86: Jason Voorhees would have loved this mate...Happy Friday the 13th.|
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