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Gioachino Greco vs NN
Miscellaneous Game (1620), ?, rd 25
French Defense: Mediterranean Defense (C01)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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sac: 7.Bxh7+ PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Nov-01-10  MaczynskiPratten: Rather a long Monday puzzle!

I'm intrigued by the 7...Kh8 and 14 Rxd7 line. After Qxd7, how is it mate in 3? I see lines like 15 Qxg5+ Ke4 16 Qg4+ Rf4 (or Nf4) and Black has 17...Kxd4 next move, so he's not (quite) dead?

Nov-01-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sastre: <After Qxd7, how is it mate in 3?> 15.f3 Ne3 16.Bxe3 Qe7 17.g4#.
Nov-01-10  tonyblanco: Nice kibitz from Once... seems uve got a real good imagination to visualize what happened some 400 years ago about this game... or maybe someone from this day just made this game to make a story? (or history)... a guy as imaginative as u?

Im a new guy here...the first kibitz Ive read so far is from Once...amusing! tnx

Nov-01-10  wals: Yes, a tick for that.

Rybka 4 x 64

depth 18 : 7 min :
Black blunder
(+7.88):6...Nd5. Best,

1. (0.88): 6...Ng4 7.Bxh7+[] Kxh7 8.Ng5+[] Kg8 9.Qxg4[] f6 10.exf6[] Bb4+ 11.c3 Qxf6[] 12.cxb4 Qxf2+ 13.Kd1 d5 14.Qh5 Qxd4+ 15.Bd2 Qd3 16.Qe2 Qxe2+ 17.Kxe2[] e5 18.Na3 Bg4+ 19.Ke1 e4 20.b5 Ne5 21.Be3 a6

2. (1.82): 6...h6 7.exf6[] Bxf6 8.c3 d6 9.Nbd2 e5 10.dxe5 Re8 11.0-0 Nxe5 12.Nxe5 dxe5 13.Qa4 c6 14.Bc2 Bxh4 15.Nf3 Bf6 16.Qe4 g6 17.Bxh6 Bf5 18.Qe2 e4 19.Nd2 e3

Nov-01-10  muralman: This is a Monday puzzle? Figuring it out was not so hard. It's just that I did have to figure out several steps, keeping in mind Black's options. It was fun.
Nov-01-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  dzechiel: <BOSTER: <Once> <Then I take a look at the bookshelf behind me...around 200 chess books>. How I remember once you said, that you had 300 chess books!>

That might have been me. I stopped counting my chess books decades ago, but I still keep buying 'em.

Nov-01-10  zabbura2002: pheww.. almost missed it because i thought white can only play 9. Qh5+ which can be halted by 9. ..Bh6
Then only i realized that 9. hg is a discovered check. Can't let myself miss a Monday's
Nov-01-10  EXIDE: Not sure how to proceed after 7--,Kh8. I would withdraw the bishop and put pressure on the black king. Otherwise I would be afraid of pawn move to g6, trapping the bishop.
Nov-01-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <BOSTER: How I remember once you said, that you had 300 chess books!>

And therein lies a guilty little secret. But I think we're all friends here, and I'm not afraid to bare my soul...

The Mem and I have a rule about my chess books - I am only allowed as many books as I can fit on a single bookcase. An IKEA Billy, in white, if you are into that sort of thing. So a couple of years ago I was approaching this marital limit and there was only one thing for it ... I went and bought a bigger bookcase. Another IKEA Billy, this time full height. Six feet tall and wide as a pair of open arms.

And for a while all was well. But those empty spaces cried out for more books and little by little even the bigger Billy was filling up.

So what is an obsessive to do? Well, to start with you cram every available inch of space with books. You stick them sideways on top of the bookcase. You sneak them into the living room bookcase, in the upstairs throne room, in the pile of unread books by my side of the bed. You keep a couple at work. You insinuate some into the history section. And Kasparov's "How life imitates chess" goes onto the lifestyle shelf. And you even give some to the number one son to start his collection off.

But the awful truth soon dawns .. you've exceeded your limit once again. And that is when I came up with a cunning plan that would have even out-cunninged Baldric. I decided that I had too many chess books about openings I don't play. It was really about time that I was monogamous with my openings and not forever chopping and changing. So I took a brave pill and started pulling chess books off the shelves. I filled a couple of cardboard boxes full of the opening books that I should never have bought in the first place. And I hid those books in the loft.

So the running total in the Once household is indeed over 300 books in the collection, but only 200 in the "official" chess bookcase that sits behind my desk.

And then you look at the newly tidied up bookshelf and realise that you've now got a bit of spare space to buy some more...

Nov-01-10  Fezzik: Yes, this is the classic Trojan Bishop sac, but no way is this a One Star puzzle! White does win against best play, but best play wasn't shown here.

All those one star puzzles which won a Q or K in two moves are far simpler than this. This is quite a complex idea, as seen from the posts so far!

Nov-01-10  WhiteRook48: that was so easy
Nov-01-10  MaxxLange: too easy? show the fastest win after 9...Kg6, without use of a chess engine

chess engines were like 400 years in the future, when this game was played. This was all done with brain power

Nov-01-10  WhiteRook48: Oh, sorry about that. I wasn't claiming to be Kasparov or anything. And I never use chess engine, it destroys the use of creativity. This may be very tricky, but I'll give it a shot; I'll probably have the wrong answer. I apologize in advance if this post has offended you in any way. 10 Qh5+ Kf5 11 f3 Ne3 12 Bxe3 Nxd4 13 Qg4+ Kg6 14 Rh6+ gxh6 15 gxh6+ Qg5 16 Qxg5+ Kh7 17 Qg7# (stiff resistance by black, sorry if this post sounds stupid)
Nov-01-10  WhiteRook48: oops, sorry, change that to 13 Qe4#
Nov-02-10  njchess: The Greek Gift in all it's glory! Everybody loves a Monday puzzle.
Nov-02-10  LIFE Master AJ: <<<once> And then you look at the newly tidied up bookshelf and realise that you've now got a bit of spare space to buy some more...>

(your post - above)>

I have five bookcases in my living room. One was "inherited," the rest came from Wal-mart. (In a box, you have to put them togther.)

Ha, ha. I have three book cases full. As you said, one row in back, another in front of that, another group of stacks in front of that, books stacked on top of the books ... and on top of one bookshelf, stacks 2-3 feet high. (I pray we never have an earthquake.)

Doing it that way, I estimate I have close to (or maybe over) 150-175 on just one shelf.

My wife Julie (who died in 2008) came to an understanding early on ... she would not try to limit my chess collection, that would not be allowed.

I have moved many times, and also lost books. For example, in the 1980's, I lived on Longleaf Drive. When I felt there, I had to put everything in storage. I got behind on the payments, and everything was liquidated. They sold boxes of my books for $5.00 each. My room-mate Joe, was able to buy most of the boxes, but I did not get everything back ...

When I was in the military, I stored about 90% of my collection in the attic of one of my relatives. That house burned to the ground. Lost a lot of books, old magazines, etc.

Nov-02-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  parisattack: <LIFE Master A J...Ha, ha. I have three book cases full. As you said, one row in back, another in front of that, another group of stacks in front of that, books stacked on top of the books ... and on top of one bookshelf, stacks 2-3 feet high. (I pray we never have an earthquake.) >

The double rowing is a good idea! What I do is rotate my collection from time to time. I have comfortable room for about 1500 chess books, the other 3000 have to be stored...What is out sort of depends what I am interested in at the time.

A friend of mine has 15k books and all displayed! Of course, he lives in a very large house and has a library room (large) for his collection.

Nov-03-10  turbo231: I feel better now I saw the first move but I couldn't see a win. I gave houdini black against GNU houdini mated white in 83 moves! A very bad puzzle.
Nov-27-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  Nightsurfer: It is strange: For centuries this basic Greco matrix, the notorious GREEK SACRIFICE of Bishop on h7 (or h2, vice versa), is well-known, yet many people fall prey to that trap over and over again. A striking textbook case has happened just recently in rainy Northern Germany, 390 long years after Greco has composed his masterpiece in sunny Italy back in 1620, and that game can be replayed here: R Gralla vs Massoud Amini, 2010 . And even if Black tries to ignore that cocky Bishop after the holy unholy guy has grabbed the Pawn h7, the severely damaged fortress of the King-under-fire will fall sooner or later, please compare a corresponding case: R Gralla vs H W Stark, 1972 - Black wants to avoid the dire consequences of accepting THE GREEK SACRIFICE by White Bishop on h7, but that does not help either, White forces his opponent to accept the treacherous "gift" anyway! Therefore it would be a good idea to read one or two books about chess history - instead of playing endless games of bullet chess or so, an aspect that has been discussed on the occasion of a lengthy (German-language) interview with Chess-Editor Manfred Olms in 2005. The text has been published by ChessBase.de, please check out http://www.chessbase.de/nachrichten... . One can not fully understand the presence of actual play on the board unless you know the basic facts of chess history!
Jul-21-14  Ke2: Wow I knew the greek gift was an old idea but not 400 years old.
Nov-22-14  sotimely: Wow, he ate my pawn for a Bishop. Must be my lucky day. He doesn't see my King can just take him right back! No sir, no reason to think about this a minute. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth!

I don't suppose this game would be very useful for "Guess the Move," seeing as only a few of these moves are good. Painful to watch, on both sides. After turn 7 I just wanna throw away my computer and quit chess.

No!!! Don't eat the Bishop! Don't do it man!

Decent moves in this game:

1. e4 e6 Looking good
2. d4 yeah that's okay.

yeah after that I'm gonna skip ahead. It looks like white is just killing time while black builds up his blunder-fairy-mountain.

4. ... Be7, surprised to see this move so long ago. Then again Greco probably meant it as an example of a bad move.

Don't even look at turn 5, you need to preserve your will to read on.

6. e5 Nd5 Good moves.

Yeah after that, they stopped playing on account of rain. Let's just say that, so I can go back to liking chess.

May-07-16  Christoforus Polacco: This game is very interesting. It's said in the old books, that ''Calabrese School'' in chess was very primitive. That it was only figure playing, sacrifices and zero of strategy. Apart from the fact that it was probably first ''chess school'' in Europe and it was not too much chess books and no computers databases :) - I can see that problem was not in Greco but in his ''pupils'' who were one hundred years behind his master... Anyway ''Calabrese School'' was the predecessor of another ''Modenese School'' who had big contribution to chess progress creatively polemizing with some Philidor's dogmas. Returning to the game between Greco and Marconi ... The first of the six moves of Greco contains four pawn's moves. So... There are not only figures :)
May-05-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  hudapri: Amazing how ancient these ideas are!
May-12-17  Yigor: Nice Greco's attack 5. h4, still a novelty today! ;)

PSCC: 2E1e (French defense) -> 2DE1e -> 2DEH1e (Greco's attack).

Aug-15-17  Christoforus Polacco: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek...
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