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Staunton / Owen vs Morphy / Barnes
London (1858), London ENG
Philidor Defense: Philidor Countergambit (C41)  ·  0-1


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find similar games 1 more Staunton / Owen/Morphy / Barnes game
sac: 15...Qe7 PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Feb-27-04  capanegra: <Calli> Yes, 13…♗d7 seems to be better. However, still looks to me that white keeps the attack after 14.♕f4 with the serious threats ♗xh6 and ♗c4.

I don’t think that white had thrown away his advantage after 11.♗xh6. In fact, as I mentioned above, 18.♖d4 is very strong and, as you say, until 23.♖e4? they had good winning chances. I just claim that 11.♗g5 is stronger than what they actually played, and I am not yet convinced about the opposite.

Feb-27-04  drukenknight: yeah, 18 Rd4 was what I meant.

what about on move 27? Isnt it just QxR+?

Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: <Kaspablanca: I want somebody explain how this kind of game works...> I am puzzled as well. Were Morphy & Barnes sitting there at a table opposite Staunton and Owen, and talking to each other saying, "I think we should play K-R1 followed by Q-N7 and Q to R6 mate..." and discussing their plans? Or were they in seperate rooms?
Premium Chessgames Member
  Calli: Its just for fun, so consultation games can be arranged in different ways. The most common setup would be that each side has a board and is out of earshot of the other team. A referee would relay a new move to the other board.
Oct-29-04  square dance: from what i read of this game it was really between morphy and staunton. it was set up as a consultation game so there would be nothing at stake for morphy and staunton, specifically staunton.
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: Strange chess fact -- supposedly Barnes beat Morphy more times than anyone -- their total record was +19 -8 in Morphy's favor. And Morphy's record against Owen was terrific -- something like +8-1 even though most of their games were at odds. So (according to the db, how did Barnes do against Owen head to head? +0 -5.
May-04-07  sneaky pete: 11.Bg5 Bg7 12.e7 Qb6 13.0-0-0 Bd7 was played in one of the mythical encounters between Attakinski (white) and Defendarow (black), site and date unknown (probably Caissenburg aka Alapingrad, February 30, 1921). The game continued 14.Qf4 Nf5 15.Bc4 Rh8 16.g4 h6 17.gxf5 hxg5 18.f6 .. (not for nothing the man is called Attakinski, comments Alapin) 18... gxf4 19.fxg7 Rg8 20.Bxg8 Kxe7 21.Bc4 Na6 22.g8=Q Rxg8 23.Bxg8 Bf5 24.Rhe1 Kf8 25.Bc4 Nc5 26.Ne2 Qc7 27.b4 Nd7 28.Nd4 Nf6 29.Be6 Qe5 30.h3 Nd5 31.Rg1 Nc3 32.Rd2 e3 33.fxe3 fxe3 0-1.
Dec-11-07  sambo: That scoundrel Owen always avoided matches with Barnes! Barnes had a real claim to being the best player in the world, but could never prove it due to Owen dodging him. The only games we have are these two consultation games. Wonder who those patzers, "Staunton" and "Morphy" are....
Premium Chessgames Member
  heuristic: 27.Qf4 Bxe2 28.Rd7 seems to hold :
28...Qxb2 29.Qxh4 Qa1+ 30.Kh2 Qe5+
28...Be7 29.Ne6 Qf6 30.Rxe7 Qxe7
28...Qf6 29.Qh6 Rg7 30.Rxg7 Qxg7

25...Bxh4 seems weaker than either :
25...Qe7 26.Rdd4 Qxc5 27.Rc4 Qa5
25...Qf6 26.Rh2 Bxh2 27.Kxh2 Ba6

Aug-27-08  sneaky pete: In the game mentioned in my earlier post between Attakinski and Defendarow after 11.Bg5 Bg7 12.e7 Qb6 13.0-0-0 Bd7 14.Qf4 Nf5 15.Bc4 Rh8 16.g4 h6? (better is 16... Bxc3 17.bxc3 Qc5) 17.gxf5 hxg5

click for larger view

white should have played 18.Qd6 .. with a clear advantage.

Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: Hij kent ook de bekende matador Opferaroff?
Aug-27-08  sneaky pete: <whiteshark> Of course! Would you like to see the 2 games Defendarow played blindfolded and simultaneously (or simulating, as D. himself calls it) against Opferaroff <and> Agressewitsch?
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: <sneaky pete> I'd really appreciate that. :D
Aug-31-08  sneaky pete: <whiteshark> The other Defendarow games are posted on the pages Dgebuadze vs P Claesen, 2005 and Steinitz vs Rainer, 1885. I noticed you tend to be a bit idiosyncratic, but I'm sure you're not so far gone that you would be interested in games by Bauernfänger, Draufgänger, Naivenski and Uebermütinoff.
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: Thank you <sneaky pete>! I get off lightly with these games for now.

<a bit idiosyncratic> I tend to agree for general considerations. Please remind me for details every now and then. Otherwise it's all <myschkin>'s fault, at least til the end of the year. :D

Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: <sneaky pete: <In the game mentioned in my earlier post between Attakinski and Defendarow after 11.Bg5 Bg7 12.e7 Qb6 13.0-0-0 Bd7 14.Qf4 Nf5 15.Bc4 Rh8 16.g4 ...>>

Comrade Hau Ruck (aka h♖) suggested <16.Rhe1 <!!>>

click for larger view

but he only said <16...h6 17.Qxe4 Bd4 18.Be3 > before he left the session.

click for larger view

Sep-08-08  sneaky pete:

click for larger view

16.Rhe1 .. is no doubt very strong. It's called centralisation and smells like a positional concept. Not something to be expected from Attila Attakinski. Why play positional chess when you can attack?

16... h6 17.Qxe4 ..

Now 17... hxg5? is punished by 18.Bf7+ Kxf7 19.Rxd7 .. and if 19... Nxd7 20.Qe6+ Ke8 21.Qxg6#. So to prevent Rxd7 .. black obstructs the d-file.

17... Bd4 18.Be3 ..

This puzzles me. After 18... Bxe3+ 19.fxe3 .. comrade Hau Ruck looks silly on e1. One would rather expect 18.Rxd4 .. with variations 18... Qxd4 19.Qxd4 Nxd4 19.Bf6 ..; 18... Nxd4 19.Bf6 .. or 19.Be3 c5 20.Nd5 ..; 18... hxg5 19.Rxd7 .. etc.

On second thought:

18.Be3 Bxe3+ 19.Rxe3! (A-ha! sagt Meister Gehirnfehlt) 19... Nxe3 (19... Qxe3+ 20.fxe3 Nxe7 21.Qe5 .. doesn't look very inviting either) 20.Qxg6+ Kxe7 21.Qg7+ Kd8 22.Qxh8+ Kc7 23.Qe5+ .

Nov-15-08  JimmyVermeer: According to Staunton's Chessplayers' Handbook (Book 2, Chapter 2, Game 17), Staunton and Owen were playing Black this game. Could it be that Staunton was wrong about a game he himself played? Or is it more likely a printing error?

Anyway, here is a possible faster win for Black.

31 Re7 Be6 32 Rxe6 Rd8 33 Nd5 Rxd5 34 Re8+ Kg7 35 g3 Qc1+ 36 Qg1 Rd1 37 Kh2 Rxg1 38 gxh4 e1Q 39 Re7+ Qxe7 40 Kh3 Qxh4+ 41 Kxh4 Qh6#

Dec-30-09  capatal: Staunton cannot burn Barnes - under Morphy's watchful eye.
Oct-01-10  SirChrislov: A game between 4 players? Is this chaturanga or is this why they called it the romantic era?
Feb-04-11  AnalyzeThis: Maybe computers can now finally give us the verdict on this complex opening. Up to a few years ago, they could not.
Jun-12-12  Anderssen99: The Morphy/Barnes team could have won artistically as follows: 31...,Be6!! (Also good is: 31...,Rd8. 32.Nd7,Rxd7!!. 33.Rxd7,e1=R+. 34.Qg1,Bg3 mate). 32.Rxe6,Rd8. 33.g3,Qc1+. 34.Kg2 (34.Qg1,Rd1),Qf1 mate.
Sep-14-16  Mozart72: A sloppy game indeed. White gave itself a coup de grace with 23.Re4.
Nov-26-16  karrer1: Staunton & Owen vs. Morphy & Barnes, 1858
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6
1 2...d6 3.d4 f5 4.dxe5 fxe4 5.Ng5 d5 6.Nc3 c6 7.Ngxe4 1 7.e6 Nh6 8.Ngxe4 dxe4 9.Qh5+ g6 10.Qe5 Rg8 11.Bg5* Bg7 12.e7 Qd7 13.Qf4 Qf5 14.Qc7 Be5 15.Qd8+ Kf7 16.Bxh6 Re8 17.O-O-O Be6 18.Qd2 Rxe7 19.Re1 Rd7 20.Qe3 Bd4 21.Qxe4 Na6 22.Bxa6 bxa6 23.Qxc6 Rad8 24.Qxa6 Bxc3 25.bxc3 Bd5 26.Re3 Kg8 27.Rd3 Rb8 28.Qa5 Qe6 29.c4 Bxc4 30.Re1 Qf7 31.Rxd7 Qxd7 32.Qe5 Rc8 33.Rd1 Qb7 34.Qf6 Qc7 35.Bf4 Qb6 36.Qxb6 axb6 37.Kb2 Be6 38.Rd6 Bf5 39.c3 b5 40.Be5 Re8 41.f4 Be6 42.g3 Kf7 43.Ra6 Bc4 44.a4 Re6 45.Ra8 bxa4 46.Rxa4 Rb6+ 47.Kc1 Bd5 48.Ra5 Ke6 49.Kc2 Bb7 50.Kd3 Rb1 51.Ra7 g5 52.c4 gxf4 53.Bxf4 h5 54.Kd4 Bf3 55.Ra6+ Kf5 56.c5 Rb4+ 57.Kc3 Rb5, 58. Be3 Ke4, 59. Bd4, 2 pawns better.

this 11. Bg5 was suggested by Sozin in 1944 as improvement (over 11 Bh6—where Morphy & Barnes went on to win game) and Stockfish agrees. The line from 11. Bg5 is Stockfish’s best play for both.

Nov-27-16  karrer1: so I ran Stockfish a bit deeper (between 20-24 moves deep, evaluations generally around 1.5 in favor of white) & we get a slightly more accurate possibility: 1. e4 e5, Nf3 d6, 3. d4 f5, 4.dxe5 fxe4 5.Ng5 d5 6.Nc3 c6 7.e6 Nh6 8.Ngxe4 dxe4 9.Qh5+ g6 10.Qe5 Rg8 (analysis:) 11.Bg5 Bg7 12.e7 Qd7 13.Qf4 Qf5 14.Qc7 Be5 15.Qd8+ Kf7 16.Bxh6 Re8 17.O-O-O Be6 18.Be2 Bf6 19.Qd2 Nd7 20.Qe3 Bxe7 21.Nxe4 Bd5 22.Bd3 Qe6 23.Rhe1 Kg8 24.Nc3 Qf7 25.Nxd5 cxd5 26.Qf4 Nc5 26...Qxf4+ 27.Bxf4 Bc5 28.f3 Nb6 29.h4 Bf2 30.Rxe8+ Rxe8 31.h5 gxh5 32.Rf1 Bd4 33.Rh1 Nc4 34.b3 Ne3 35.Rxh5 Bc3 36.Bg3 Nxg2 37.Rxd5 Nf4 38.Rg5+ Kh8 39.Bb5 Re5 40.Rxe5 Bxe5 41.Kd2 Kg7 42.Be2 42.Bf2 Bb8 43.Bd7 h5 44.Ke3 Kg6 45.Ke4 Ne2 46.f4 Nc3+ 47.Kf3 Nxa2 48.Be8+ Kf5 49.Bxh5 Bxf4 50.Bg4+ Ke5 51.Bxa7 Bh6 52.Bc5 b5 53.Bd7 Kd5 54.Be7 Nc3 55.Be8 Ke5 56.Bc5 Kd5 57.Be7 Ke5 58.Bc5 Kd5 59.Be7 Ke5 60.Bc5, =.
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