< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
|Apr-07-06|| ||outplayer: So 33.Qxc6 is the only way White can win. It is a forced move. I really didnt see it to the end but I have chosen it.|
|Apr-07-06|| ||mormonchess: "Ever since I started kibitzing on this site I have wondered (and often posted) about whether the player initiating a winning sacrificial combination calculated all the possibilities ahead of time or was just making a "positional" sac, i.e., betting on a hunch."|
<al wazir> I read in one of my chess books that Najdorf once said that he won a brilliancy in a tournament based on a very fine game that he won. However, during the entire game, he never calculated much beyond a couple of moves.
I think some players calculate more than others; plus, I think that in some games, you are very familiar with the positions that arise and so you naturally don't calculate as much as you play intuitively.
But the point is, even a GM like Najdorf didn't calculate over the board as much as we believe he did. And I assume that there are plenty of other GMs in the same boat.
|Apr-07-06|| ||outplayer: I will never become a GM but as an exercise I will try to calculate 3 or 4 moves next time.|
|Apr-07-06|| ||Eric Schiller: <mormonchess> I don't think there is any universal pattern. Some players are not inclined to sacrifice unless they can work it all out, others, like Tal, often sacrificed instinctively. Of course many players will claim afterwards that they saw it all along, but such claims should be taken with a grain of salt.|
I tend to sacrifice whenever it looks attractive, and readily admit that I didn't work out the entire combination in E Schiller vs Mike Arne, 1995.
It was just too good an opportunity to pass up!
|Apr-07-06|| ||Stelling: I love black's defensive resource on this puzzle, that's the tricky part of the problem!
You can only claim to have solved the puzzle if you noticed that black would survive if their h pawn were in h6 instead of h7, before taking the c6 bishop!|
|Apr-07-06|| ||outplayer: Now I think I should calculate 6 moves after.|
|Apr-07-06|| ||OBIT: Frankly, any master who says he doesn't calculate certain types of sacrifices is blowing smoke. I suppose he can claim that he is making a positional sacrifice if, for example, he gives up a bishop for two pawns and a long-term initiative. However, giving up something like queen for bishop without seeing the whole combination ahead of time is obviously way too risky, and sure to lose far more games than it will win.|
|Apr-07-06|| ||goldenbear: <OBIT>I think you miss the point. All other moves lose quickly so there is no alternative. The 'only move' need not be calculated. This occurs very frequently in late middle-game and end-game.|
|Apr-07-06|| ||schnarre: Even I saw Qxc6!|
|Apr-07-06|| ||HELLOHELLOWATER: hey im new at this|
|Apr-07-06|| ||HELLOHELLOWATER: just checking if my kibits actaully works, so if you can read this message, type I CAN READ IT|
|Apr-07-06|| ||Jim Bartle: Nope, sorry, can't read it. Welcome.|
|Apr-07-06|| ||dakgootje: Okay everyone, raise your hand if you cant read that comment! No the other one! no not the other hand! the other message! Only if you cant see the message which you cant see at the moment! Your guys are making fun of that poor guy over there, he is still counting hands but you all raise your hand even if you can read the message! A hopeless people...|
|Apr-07-06|| ||OBIT: <GoldenBear> Oh, please... White is only losing a pawn in this position, so you can hardly say "all other moves lose quickly". If the combo doesn't work (moving the Black h-pawn from h7 to h6 is enough to bust it), play 33. Ne4 and force White to demonstrate his endgame prowess. |
Furthermore, note that the knight went to d6 on the previous move. Clearly, Sliwa saw the whole combination BEFORE he played 32. Nd6. If you DON'T see the whole combo before you play 32. Nd6, then the move is simply a blunder.
|Apr-07-06|| ||Gypsy: <OBIT: ... If the combo doesn't work (moving the Black h-pawn from h7 to h6 is enough to bust it), play 33. Ne4 and force White to demonstrate his endgame prowess.> The defense after 33.Ne4 Qg6 |
click for larger view
could be tricky, against Stoltz. But I suspect that Sliwa had a pretty good idea where this was all heading when he played his <29.b6> already. And it is practically certain he saw it all when the <32.Nd6> came.
To my taste, this would be just another rather pretty combination overall, but its punchline <37.Nb7!!> turns it into a rare jewel. I personally have not seen a deflection like that before.
A great win over a great oponent.
|Apr-07-06|| ||kevin86: A very different kind of game-with back rank threats by both sides!|
It looks like black steals a queen for rook and knight---but then it's white's turn, The back-rank mate threats force black's queen into a pin. Alas for him,his own pieces prevent a back rank mate BY BLACK.
The extra knight wins it in the end!
|Apr-08-06|| ||Hektor: Unless he prefers to remain a minor piece down, black's best moves are more or less forced between 33.... bxc6 and 36... Qxb8. While 33. Qxc6 appears to show promise, white accomplishes nothing without seeing through to 37. Nb7!|
This really was a pretty sacrifice: I bet that black was nearly jolted out of his seat!
|Apr-08-06|| ||goldenbear: <OBIT>All I know is that I would have played Qxc6 without thinking in OTB play. I guess I just like suprises. Maybe this explains why in about 50 tournament games I have only two draws, one being a botched king and queen vs. king endgame! Yep, I stalemated him.|
|Apr-09-06|| ||who: I don't know where the last point black could have salvaged a draw, but I suspect that 26...Bxb5 27.Rxb5 Nxb5 28.Qxb5 is still a draw.|
|Apr-10-06|| ||Gypsy: <who: I don't know where the last point black could have salvaged a draw, but I suspect that 26...Bxb5 27.Rxb5 Nxb5 28.Qxb5 is still a draw.> Black to play,|
click for larger view
Even if Black can hold it, and I am not sure that he can, he is in for a long, grym defense; winning chances seem to be only with White.
|Apr-12-06|| ||LIFE Master AJ: < <Eric Schiller>
"I tend to sacrifice whenever it looks attractive, and readily admit that I didn't work out the entire combination in E Schiller vs Mike Arne, 1995. It was just too good an opportunity to pass up!"> |
Thanks for that bit of honesty from a fellow master ... and thanks also for sharing the game with us.
|Apr-12-06|| ||LIFE Master AJ: <all>
On the same note ... I have made some sacrifices where I worked it all out in advance. (In every detail.) In others, it just looked good, and I played it mostly because I never found an easy refutation.
|Apr-13-06|| ||suenteus po 147: <chancho> He was a premium member before; his avatar was a butterfly.|
|Apr-13-06|| ||Gregor Samsa Mendel: <chancho> Actually I was a premium member between September 2004 and 2005 but let it expire when I went through a 5-month-long non-kibitizing phase. My old avatar was the butterfly now used by Marmot PFL.|
|Jul-23-06|| ||LIFE Master AJ: This was given as the puzzle for the day ... with White to play ... on his 33rd turn. I would have to say that you should not have gotten credit until you saw at least as far ahead as 37.Nb7, and maybe just a bit more.|
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