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Siegbert Tarrasch vs Isidor Gunsberg
Manchester (1890), Manchester ENG, rd 4, Aug-27
Spanish Game: Open Variations. Classical Defense Main Line (C83)  ·  1-0


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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
May-05-04  Ed Caruthers: It's worth looking for patterns of mistakes. Look at the position & Gunsberg was probably pretty happy. He was way ahead in development, had a knight in the center, and was looking to get the rooks to the e & d files quickly. That's just where I'd be likely to miss danger.
May-05-04  onthebeat1971: Ed Caruthers, that's a good point.
May-05-04  Abecedarian: Seems like 11...Qd7 is the real blunder, while 12...fxe6 just terminates. Is there some way to create counter play after 12. Qxe6??, notwithstanding the pin on the queen and black going down a piece with 13.Rxe4? Obviously playing a piece down against Tarrasch is no fun. But <Ed Caruthers> has good point about superiour black development.
May-05-04  Whitehat1963: <FerociousBeast>, a friend of mine used to say that "the ones who talk the most usually do the least." Somehow, I suspect he was talking about the likes of you. 2700 USCF rating? Yeah, right. I seriously doubt it. Nevertheless, even if it were true, I suspect your TC rating(tact and courtesy) probably lies a couple of standard deviations below your I.Q.
May-05-04  myratingstinks: Not to take sides......... but, my rating fluctuates at about 1500-1600 & I saw this move. Although I must add that when you KNOW there is a solution, even the most basic brains can do process of elimination. There are only a certain # of legal moves.......
May-05-04  mikhs: I have seen this comment from FerociousBeast before in axactly the same wording. He must have just copied and pasted it again. My guess is that he uses this just to get a reaction from the rest of you and then sits back and laughs at all the responses. Franklty this is getting boaring and everyone would do better just to ignore him, otherwise he is getting exactly what he wants out of these comments. P.S. I do not think his rating is very high as he cannot even show enough imagination to change his derogatory remarks once in a while.
May-05-04  Vischer: FerociousBeast a 2700-- lol!I think thats one (or two) zeros too many.
May-05-04  JeffM70: FerociousBeast is a troll. Ignore him.
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: Today's puzzle (12?) is a very good combination for instruction on two basic tactics (i.e. deflection and the pin).

12. Nxe6 is a forcing "deflection" tactic that gives White two simple alternatives to analyze in either 12...exf6 or 12...Qxf6.

If 12...exf6, then 13. Rxe4 takes advantage of the "pin" on the e-file by the White Queen on d1 to win a piece, as the "pinned pawn" on d5 cannot recapture without dropping the Queen for a hopeless material deficit.

If 12...Qxf6, then the simple 13. Rxe4! takes advantage of the pin of the Queen by the Bishop on b3 to win a piece as the "pinned pawn" on d5 cannot recapture without dropping the Queen for a bishop.

White could also win after 12...Qxf6 with 13. Bxd5!? Raa8 14. BxQe6 RxQd1 15. RxRd1 16. fxe6, giving White the exchange and a pawn advantage which should be enough to win, but it is not as effective as the simple 12...Qxf6 13. Rxe4! The definitely inferior 12...Qxf6 13. Qxd5?! might also win after a long struggle, but makes the job much harder after 13...Nc5!?, when Black has counterchances.

May-05-04  masterwojtek: <Patzer2> You mean 12...fxe6 and 12...Qxe6 right?
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: <masterwojtek> Yes, I intended to record 12...fxe6 and 12...Qxe6. Thanks for the corrections.
May-05-04  boobsmacfadin: black got to greedy in the opening...and then blundered.
May-05-04  Calculoso: (I know white is already winning) What about after 12. ... Qxe6 13. Bxd5 with 'mad forkage' on the knights and queen and soon after Rxe4.
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: After 11...Nxd4 instead of 11...Qd7??, White has more space and the initiative. However, Black has counter-chances in a near level game.
May-05-04  erikcu: I found this usueful piece of advice in response the ferociousbeast's usual antics. matein8: For anyone who is not aware of the ignore feature:

If a certain member of our community annoys you, you have the power to filter our their kibitzes entirely so that you never need to read their messages again. To do this, simply click on their name and visit their profile, then follow the link at the bottom that reads "IGNORE all kibitzing by _____". They will be added to your ignore-list.

from: Help

Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: <Calculoso> After 12...Qxe6 13. Bxd5!? Raa8 14. BxQe6 RxQd1 15. RxRd1 16. fxe6, White is winning with the exchange and a pawn advantage. However, the simple 12...Qxe6 13. Rxe4! gives White a more decisive material advantage.
May-06-04  iron maiden: That's probably good advice, since it's likely that "furby" is just doing it for the attention. Just ignore him and he'll go away.
Jun-14-05  Knight13: This game is just like this game: Tarrasch vs Zukertort, 1887. GOOD GAME! I LIKE IT!
Mar-16-12  Bishoprick: This Spanish is exactly the same as the one against Zuckertort in 1887.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Penguincw: Oddly enough, but this isn't even Gunsberg's quickest loss with the Ruy Lopez. This is: Blackburne vs Gunsberg, 1890.
Aug-23-13  estrick: 11...Qd7 is clearly the losing move.

In the CG database there are 23 games where Black plays 11...Nxd4. White wins 10 and Black wins 7, with 6 draws.

11...Nxe5 goes into the "Breslau Variation" with dizzying complications. There are only 9 examples, with White winning two times, Black winning four times, and three games drawn.

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: How exactly like [bad link] is it really?

Maybe that's the reason that the move order here on <CG> disagrees with those given by Tarrasch himself, in his <300 Games> book.

Premium Chessgames Member
  SwitchingQuylthulg: The removed game was a bad version of Blackburne vs Gunsberg, 1887.
Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: 30 seconds after I writing the above the post gets a "bad link"

Seems that gid=1029187 was known bad back in 2015.

Leaves me wondering, did I find a <Tarrasch--Zukertort (1887)> game with that gid?

Maybe my now-broken-post can be fixed to make sense as well.

May-27-16  RookFile: Black plays 12 normal looking moves in this game, yet is lost. I think the moral of the story is to learn the opening you're playing and not just try to wing it.
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