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Garry Kasparov vs Etienne Bacrot
Armenia vs The Rest of the World 2004  ·  Spanish Game: Closed Variations (C88)  ·  1/2-1/2


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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 9 OF 9 ·  Later Kibitzing >
May-09-05   Everett: <keypusher> Thanks for the info on the tournaments in '70. I see that Korchnoi's losses to Fischer came before '70

<Rookfile <So it stand to reason that a result of 3 to 2 for Karpov means he's at
about Korchnoi's level.

Meaning, he loses to Fischer, at that
time.>
>
And how does this logic address styles and personal match-ups?

You give excellent evidence that Korchnoi has been #2 in match play for 15 years, as he lost to nobody but the eventual world champ from '68 - '83, with the exception of Petrosian in '71 (last time WC in '69), an outcome the Russians are said to have favored because they felt Petrosian would have a better chance against Fischer than Korchnoi.

Korchnoi's supposed statements of "no one could match up against Fischer," is not entirely true. I want to see the whole quote, verbatim, if you are going to use it in an argument. Otherwise it's trash.

May-09-05   Everett: And thank goodness Bronstein was the one, not Boleslavsky, to go against Botvinnik. As Boleslavsky felt he had no chance, was completely psyched out before the match even happened, whereas Bronstein knew the truth, that no one is unbeatable.

How's this: Petrosian in '66-form beats Fischer. Many of you know of the lousy positions Fischer got against Tigran in the beginning of their '71 match.

Spassky didn't want to work at chess (he did work hard, reluctantly, for his '69 match, but it was unsustainable), and though he had the most confidence (and the least fear of failure) than all of his Russian comrades in a match against Fischer, he wasn't prepared and/or cared less than Fischer.

If there were only a player at that time like Bronstein (out of form in '72 as he was), to show the world the fallacy of the unbeatable player.

May-09-05   Everett: My money would be on Korchnoi.
May-09-05   RookFile: Petrosian in '66 beating Fischer?
That's a laugh and a half... The
Petrosian vs. Spassky match in 1966
featured some pretty lousy chess.
May-09-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  Benzol: <RookFile> I don't know of any World Championship match that hasn't had some low moments at some point. The tension in these matches is extreme.

The 1966 did feature some good games too e.g.
Spassky vs Petrosian, 1966, Petrosian vs Spassky, 1966 and Spassky vs Petrosian, 1969.

May-09-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  iron maiden: <the lousy positions Fischer got against Tigran in the beginning of their '71 match> Were Fischer's positions in the games 1 and 3 really that lousy? As far as I know the jury's still out on whether Petrosian had a clear win in the first game. And in the third, Fischer had an enormous time advantage to compensate for his inferior position on the board, so you can't really say he was lucky to save that one either.
May-09-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  acirce: <Were Fischer's positions in the games 1 and 3 really that lousy?> They were not clearly lost as far as I know, but yes, definitely lousy.

<And in the third, Fischer had an enormous time advantage to compensate for his inferior position on the board, so you can't really say he was lucky to save that one either.> How much time did Petrosian have left in the final position?

May-09-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  iron maiden: He had less than three minutes on his clock according to Brady's biography. Fischer had over half an hour.
May-09-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  acirce: Ok, thanks. Hard to say, but maybe it should still have been enough to reach the time control and retain the advantage.
May-09-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  iron maiden: Not that the win's all that clear anyway, even if he did have more than three minutes to get to move 40.
May-09-05   Hesam7: <iron maiden> On game 3 of Fischer-Petrosian match, I think Fischer was clearly inferior, his position has two weak points: First the damaged pawn structure on the king side and second Black's pawn majority on the queen side. I think with the correct play Petrosian should have won the game. My evaluation of the final position is:

Another point: In an old book I had different scores for that game [the draw was later something like move 36. I do not remember correctly] and it was stated that due to time trouble [For the last 10 moves Petrosian had less than 3 minutes and Fischer had half an hour, exactly as you said] Petrosian did not see the draw by repetition of position. He tried to avoid the repetition of moves but he repeated the same position 3 times.

May-09-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  iron maiden: <Hesam7> My point was not that there wasn't a win for Petrosian (perhaps there was). But he needed to get to the time control in three minutes without compromising his advantage, and then win a very debatable ending against one of the best endgame players of all time. That's too tall an order IMO, particularly with a player as resourceful as Fischer on the other side of the board.
May-09-05   Hesam7: <iron maiden> If you mean It was "Practically" very difficult to win, then I agree. But the final position is really bad for White, Black has a clear advantage, it is a matter of technique.
May-10-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  Gypsy: <<Gypsy>, what do you mean by there being a "serious questionmark" on the first Korchnoi-Petrosian match? It always seemed to me like a typical Petrosian victory.> Sorry, I did not notice your question. I do not want to take sides on this: A claim is that before the last game (match tied) Petrosian and Korchnoi were summoned and asked who of the two had better chances of derailing Fischer before reaching Spassky. Korchnoi estimated Fischer objectively as favorite against anybody, including himself (Korchnoi that is) -- his own chances being perhaps 30% (?? or some number like that). Petrosian implied that although he could not realy promise anything, he had seen some opening in Fischer's play.... The upshot of the claim is that the authorities chose Petrosian to face Fischer and Korchnoy got two (?) trips to Western tournaments of choice for being a good sport about it.

All in all, before Korchnoi turned 50, he lost only two matches by more than 1-point margin: he had -3 in his 1968 candidates match with Spassky and -3 in his 1970 training match with Bronstein.

May-10-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  Gypsy: Looking up the date of the Korchnoi-Bronstein match, I noticed an interesting fact: It looks like Bronstein never lost a match! He defeated Boleslavsky, Furman, and Korchnoi; drew Botvinnik and Tall. (Did I missed any?)
May-10-05   Hesam7: <Gypsy> Do you know what is Korchnoi's view on this matter? In a book published shortly after his defect he denied this charges. In that book he says: [This is not the exact wording] After so many draws in the beginning people believed both of us were afraid of Fischer and that none of us wanted to win the match and play him!!
May-10-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  Gypsy: <After so many draws in the beginning people believed both of us were afraid of Fischer and that none of us wanted to win the match and play him!!> ... In other words, he turned it into a joke. As far as I know, Korchnoi has not confirmed game fixes anywhere.
May-10-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: That story seems quite fishy to me anyway, since Petrosian had scored 1-3 against Fischer (who had been practically inactive for the previous three years) in the USSR-ROW match in 1970. Not a lot to go on, admittedly.
May-10-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  Gypsy: <keypusher> Many possibilities seem equally plausible here. I was just asking <RookFile> if he realy ment Petrosian or if intended to say Spassky.

Comes to think of it, Korchnoy's joke may come closest to the truth: Given what happened to Taimanov after his 0:6 result in the quarter-finale, it would not suprise that the two semi-finalists were quite ambivalent about the prospect of advancing to face Fischer. They could have both view the alleged summon by authorities as actually a good opportunity to do some expectation management. After all, the repercussions for disgracing Soviet homeland in a crushing defeat by Fischer were sometimes draconian. Taimanov became a virtual road-kill. Later, Spassky went to the dog-house ...

May-10-05   Everett: Thanks <acirce>, <hesam7> and the rest who disagree for responding to some of my ideas. I think many of my posts are somewhat inane, or not interesting, so I'm happy to see that I've sparked some interesting discussion.

and <rookfile> I was wondering if you can respond to other aspects of my posts, since they are predominately addressed to you. You seem to only address the portions that you deem easy to address.

Finally, Korchnoi may not have felt he could win, but Fischer would not have found complacency (ie Spassky, perhaps) nor fear (ie. other Soviets, it seems) in Korchnoi's game. His significant successes against Karpov speak more of Korchnoi's tenacity (perhaps unmatched by any other Russian of his day) than of Karpov's presumed vulnerability.

May-20-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  LIFE Master AJ: <everyone>
Must be a popular game ... I couldn't even find my own comment! (And now I forgot what I was going to say!)
Jul-16-06   asip87: at least he drew to kaspar! hes not some1 else, good prformance..
Dec-05-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  WarmasterKron: <<Gypsy> Later, Spassky went to the dog-house ...>

France?

Dec-05-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  Gypsy: <WarmasterKron> Just a plain old dog-house. Poodle-house, that came after that.
Jan-20-09   WhiteRook48: Yikes! Kasparov blunder!! Bacrot was probably happy to get that blunder... anyway...
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