< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 7 OF 7 ·
|Mar-05-12|| ||zakkzheng: Very nice game. Well played|
|Mar-05-12|| ||sleepyirv: <Sneaky> 5, 10, 15 moves before Black sent that rook to the gallows. It just takes Qf8+ for the executioner to collect.|
|Mar-05-12|| ||dzechiel: I'm reluctant to weigh in here (I try my best to stay out of spats like this), but I think the fundamental problem is that each person has his own definition of what "best move" means, and they are playing the move that best fits their own definition.|
For <Once>, the "best move" is the one that brings home the victory the fastest. Hard to argue with 40 Qxf8+ resigns as the "best move" for that definition.
For <RookFile>, the "best move" is the one that leads to the fastest checkmate.
In other circumstances the "best move" could be the most forcing move that leads to a win (a move that doesn't allow any freedom for the opponent, and therefor cannot be botched up).
Right now the argument is really over these definitions. See if you can all get on the same page.
|Mar-05-12|| ||RookFile: The best move is the one that involves the most play on the a or h file.|
|Mar-05-12|| ||udaykc: My vote goes to 40 Qxf8. It is certainly the most forcing line which quickly leads to an insurmountable lead for white, with a non-existent chance of botching up. If I were playing this game OTB there is no chance I would have considered anything else after looking at 40 Qxf8. Personally I time myself to solve Monday puzzles as soon as possible and find a clearly winning line quickly. So naturally I arrived at 40 Qxf8. But if the goal of the problem was to find the quickest mate possible without any time restriction then I "may" have stumbled upon h5 or Re5. But clearly 40 Qxf8 is the easiest-to-analyze line that leads to a clear and quick win. As far as engine points are concerned I don't see much difference between 8 or 11 points if your opponent is left with only his king and pawns after a few moves.|
|Mar-05-12|| ||Quentinc: <Once: That thump thump thump drip drip sound is my head repeatedly hitting the wall, followed by the blood trickling down onto my keyboard.>
No, that thump thump thump sound you hear is RookFile clapping at his own ineffable cleverness.|
|Mar-05-12|| ||1stboard: The power of the passed pawn .....|
|Mar-05-12|| ||stst: Monday, Q-sac?!
43.RxQ and White should cruise easily to win with this only R on board.
|Mar-05-12|| ||sevenseaman: I was thinking about alternate lines proposed by <Rook File> only now. Its a very good line, btw.|
As <dzechiel> aptly puts it, 'Best move' is a concept that varies from person to person.
At the time of analysis I felt <Qxf8+> was pre-analysed and nothing would persuade me to let my mind wander.
My approach to analysis is a tad primitive. I tend to go for lines that take away the tension and leave me in little doubt that I'd eventually win. <less chance of making an error> is the way <Pensive> puts it. Or
<the "best" move is the winning move that you saw first or is easily winning from your viewpoint> is how <Patriot> puts it.
<Once> is quite comprehensive in his response to <RookFile> and is very representative of our 'set' here. <a dime versus two nickels> is a very terse and apt summation by <I play the Fred>.
For me <"when you find a good move, look for a better one"> is only a dictum that keeps the bachelor (or a spinster) from getting married in good time.
I think I will go for Qxf8+, always and every time. For me its a 'won line' versus 'a winning line'.
|Mar-05-12|| ||chrisowen: <RookFile> Afraid giving it your view speech and chaseing why it h5p inceed mind re time it her f8 landing! |
To be frank you did rites of pass h6 estimate prefer it qxf8+ art hinge which i seldom in excuse.
Our inquiry it hem back king 7g low in go-getter it a more splendid alma?
Earlier good queen rook e8 ogle previous chaffing ok it e7 or h5 also d1+ too rc5 limb it out in level it still plus,
In king queen delve in e5 at wave detain as well it favour in point bodes ok little longer finish but not worth it throwing book to.
Come on we all know to finger the h4 is taboo.
When much cleaner queen pipe stint ruck ever seem in crick as trade down legging queen geed up in e7 rooke8 promo d8 and win steady chance in rook it swing erase very hassle free kingg2 h6 rxc5 best ground to make you plow as up queen has to keep going.
But only gooks and silks find amusing torturing a pawn escape tool it dote h5 h6 is tinted field-glasses see it ar in good f8 ive rook d8 all interlocute it agreed in?
|Mar-05-12|| ||1.e4effort: HILARIOUS!! that was the most interesting kibitzing i've ever seen on this site!!! the clear victor of this debate is <once>!! apart from pointing out THE ONLY LOGICAL MOVE he also cited the particulars of the situation (it being an olympiad, time pressure, etc.) that cannot be overlooked. or ignored. or argued away by a positional move that may or may not prove deadly later on. additionally, <once> has a world class imagination to go along with his usually precise and enlightening game analysis. and there you have my 10 cents - in a single coin....|
|Mar-05-12|| ||Quentinc: Not only that, the "debate" inspired the first <chrisowen> post I think I actually understand (and agree with completely!).|
|Mar-05-12|| ||TheBish: Keene vs R Calvo, 1968|
White to play (40.?) "Very Easy"
This is a great one to add to my tactics files to use for my students. File this one under "queening combinations".
40. Qxf8+! Kxf8 41. Re8+ Kg7 42. d8=Q and wins.
|Mar-06-12|| ||Dr. Pipit Wagtail: <e4effort> A review of Fischer's note to his 32nd move in his 1959 Candidates match with Gligorich (game 13 in his My 60 Memorable Games book if you have it) might give you pause in your laughter and some appreciation of Rookfile's cleverness here. We often hear that we should be pragmatic and practical, that fine moves which win are good enough etc. There is, however, another side to all coins.|
|Mar-06-12|| ||BadKnight: I think I will join the fun discussion here. <Once> is the clear winner in my opinion in this case.
A forcing line is easier to calculate and therefore better for all practical purposes. If you could limit your opponents reply to <only one legal move> each time then its very easy to calculate and impossible to mess up, so this approach can't be criticized. So computer evaluation numbers don't matter IMHO, Qxf8 is the clear winner here. That being said, I should not criticize someone if s/he finds a more asthetic, albeit difficult to calculate, wins. If I am at war i would like to have my opponent completely disarmed with myself having only one gun, as opposed to my opponent having one gun vs me having 10 of them. I will always like to put myself <beyond defeat> as soon as possible. for example often i am left with two pawns and queen against my opponent having only a knight or a rook i always force the exchange of opponents last piece for the queen if the pawn ending is clearly won. an engine with 3300 elo would probably consider that a blunder, but so be it.
once i have reached the position that is beyond defeat, i.e. my opponent has is left with no counter chances, and still my opponent refuses to resign, i often relish the position and make a bunch of under promotions and delay the mate just for fun.|
|Mar-06-12|| ||BadKnight: In the following position from the game Carlsen vs The World, 2010|
click for larger view
white had to reasonable moves, 28.Nb6 and 28.g4. A quick engine check, and Mr. Houdini thinks 28.Nb6 is better in terms of evaluation number. from human perspective 28.g4 is <better> because it nullifies opponent counter play. Kasparov was present in the live commentary room during the game, and he criticized 28.Nb6, because the resulting line is complicated. all the complications could have been avoided with 28.g4. he said 28.Nb6 could be a better computer move, but there is no need to calculate the resulting lines.
in the postmortem carlsen said he had seen both the moves as winning. he played 28.Nb6 because he wanted to spice things up a bit. since it was an exhibition game, it made sense.
|Mar-06-12|| ||King Death: <jackpawn: <RookFile> Surely you're just pulling our chains?! Any normal player plays 40 Qxf8+ because it forces an immediate resignation. That's the quickest practical win. Case closed.>|
Surely you aren't expecting anything different from somebody that's been known to tell us that Nimzowitsch was no better than Larry Christiansen, even in the face of a ton of proof that his position was you might call untenable.
The poster in question claims that he runs a successful business. I wonder how successful it can really be if he argues with customers with the same pig headed nonsense that he blats on about here.
|Mar-06-12|| ||Once: Let's not make it too personal please. <rookfile> is entitled to his opinion, no matter how fundamentally I or others disagree with it.|
In a pure puzzle situation there is something to be said for finding the quicker mate. So 40. h5 deserves an honourable mention. I would have phrased it differently as "40. h5 also wins" rather than "it's a stronger move". But that's just a matter of style.
OTB we want to win as quickly and simply as possible. And in pro chess the only move worth condidering is the one that forces instant resignation.
I think we've made the point. In the abstract world of kibitzing there is nothing wrong with playing moves like 40. h5. It wins.
But if you ever find yourself in a position like this one in a real game, then please please please just take the rook. Simplify into a trivially won endgame with a massive material plus.
Your opponent will thank you for not dragging the game out endlessly. Your team captain will clap you on the back for a good result. The other players in the team will see your early win and may then adjust their playing style - eg to force a draw if that is all that the team now needs to win the match.
You will get to the bar sooner. And have the time for more drinks. And the world will be a much happier place.
|Mar-06-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: Monday, March 5th
Keene vs R Calvo
40. Qxf8+ Kxf8 41. Re8+ Kg7 42. d8=Q wins easily as after 42...Qf5 (say) White could sac a pawn for the sake of simplification with 43. Rg8+ Kh6 44. Qg5+ Qxg5 45. hxg5+ Kxg5 46. Rc8
|Mar-06-12|| ||RookFile: <Once: Let's not make it too personal please. <rookfile> is entitled to his opinion, no matter how fundamentally I or others disagree with it. >|
Good advice. By the way, I want to apologize to you. I felt badly last night about a post I made, it was too harsh.
|Mar-06-12|| ||Once: I think we both said things that, with hindsight, we had rather we hadn't.|
No apology needed. All is well. It's good fun talking to you ...
... even if we won't always agree! ;-)
|Mar-06-12|| ||chrisowen: <Quentinc> Just ditto... Crooking for queen sac qf8 able truck, best good gag book a chisel skip linger qd1 against having pull for h6p cuff hook? Fq8 alive gunning look smurf pawnh5 seeling off.|
|Mar-06-12|| ||ray keene: for the record i didnt think twice about playing Qxf8+ which essentially forces resignation. let me tell you an anecdote-in the siegen olympiad two years after this game was played i was watching the game penrose v ulvestad where penrose was much better and possibly winning-before the game was over he had a seizure and never resumed-what if i had over refined with h5 for example and than had a seizure-nobody is going to resign after h5-everyone at that level is going to resign after qxf8+ IF I HAD NOT PLAYED QXF8+ i think my team captain wd have rested me for the remainder of the tournament-the scenario-oh white might have had a heart attack before executing the killer blow-may sound far fetched-but i actually saw something similar happen two years later in the following olympiad-my advice-if you can force your opponent to resign on the spot-then do it-i might add another horrible example-norman littlewood v haygarth british championship 1964. the goal of chess is to win-not find the ultimately best move.|
|Mar-06-12|| ||OhioChessFan: The note on Black's 13th move is the kind of stuff I just love about this site. Thanks to Ray Keene for sharing his time and energy.|
|Mar-06-12|| ||I play the Fred: <the goal of chess is to win-not find the ultimately best move.>|
I like what Yasser Seirawan said when Kasparov played a less-optimal but still winning move: "Kasparov has calculated a forced win, and one win per game is all you'll ever need."
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