< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 3 ·
|Jul-18-04|| ||Dick Brain: <samvega> If I knew that I could get 23. Rxe5 Bxe5 24. Ne6+ Ke8 25. Nxg5 I would probably stop my concrete analysis right there with just an evaluation of the postion since I am not the sort of person to calculate postions 10 moves ahead in a middlegame. At that point it looks like the only way fix Black's game is for his king to wander out to the queenside which it cannot because of the stranglehold caused by White's queen. Also Black appears to have no immediate counterplay to speak of. What I would mainly worry about would be plans that Black would come up with to extricate his king with the Queen manouver Qb5-Qb7 but with the all Black's kingside weaknesses (f7, h5, the unprotected rook on h8, the bishop that could get trapped in some lines) a non-genius like myself would have to just say it's probably 1-0 and go for it.|
However I would not be as sure of it as Helloween is (unless I knew concrete variations) because my fear is that the initiative can change unexpectedly.
|Jul-19-04|| ||karlzen: <Helloween>, a question about part of your analysis on Bxe5: 23...Bxe5 24.Ne6+ Ke8 25.Nxg5 Bf6 26.Nh7 Be5 27.Re1 Qc5 28.Ng5 Rf8 29.Rxe5 dxe5 30.d6 Qxd6 31.Ne6 I don't see a clear win for white. He might get a winning ending, but it's not so simple I believe. Black could definitely fight on there: 31...a6 32.Nxf8 e6!. The point is that white will get Q+B and not the better pair Q+N. If it gets to an ending, I would say that white's queenside is slightly weak, compensation black for his small number of pawns on the other flank. 31.Bxf7+ keeping the knight might be a better idea, still black can fight on.|
I would like to propose your idea of 29.Bd1! instead.
|Dec-24-11|| ||rilkefan: Rxe5 is the obvious move, but I can't see what happens after ...Bxe5 (...dxe5 and d6 crashes through as f6, h8, and a8 are loose). Here 24.Ne6+ Ke8 25.Nxg5 continues the attack, but ...Bf6 (I guess if ...f6 then f4 and white's position looks pretty dominant, needs follow-up) - have to resort to using a board. Maybe 27.Nh7 Bg7 28.Re1. Dunno, Ba4 is in the air if Qc7, and the knight comes back in on f6 or g5 depending.|
Probably I'd enter this OTB, but I'd take a look at 23.f4 first.
|Dec-24-11|| ||sevenseaman: Equal. At first sight a). 23. Ne6+ pops up. The other candidates coming into view are b). 23. Rxe5 and c). 23. f4 leading to gxf4, gxf4 & turning the heat on the e5N.|
a). 23. Ne6 fxe6 24. dxe6 locks up and seems to fizzle out.
b). 23. Rxe6
i) 23...Bxe5 24. Ne6+ Ke8 25. Nxg5
click for larger view
ii)23...dxe5. Logical now is to push 24. d6. It makes the N safe from Black's 'e' P as Black loses his sadly placed Q.
The presence of White B on b3 ties down Black's f6 B as its move away combines the White Q with his LSB.
Forget the candidate c). 23. f4 now.
In this line from Black's angle his B needs to be protected and 'd' P (that threatens to become 'e' P) has to be stopped. Too many defensive chores!
Meanwhile White is free to maneuver his N, R or Q with no apprehensions of danger to his K.
So after <23. Rxe5 dxe5 24. d6>;
click for larger view
White should be able to roll out a win from here. Black's Q is going to remain a silent spectator, methinks.
|Dec-24-11|| ||al wazir: I would have played 23. f4, and I bet that wins. I can't analyze all the lines in my head, but white's pieces are better placed and his s in particular are poised for attack.|
|Dec-24-11|| ||morfishine: Of the two candidates (Rxe5 & Ne6+), settled on <23.Rxe5> but in the end, didn't play the best for Black. |
The line I decided on ran: <23.Rxe5 dxe5 24.Ne6+ fxe6 25.dxe6 Rg8 26.Rd7 Rd8 27.Qxf6+ exf6 28.e7+ Ke8 29.exd8+ Qxd8 30.Rxd8+ Kxd8 31.Bxg8>
click for larger view
Since I got one move right (23.Rxe5) of a six-move combo, do I get one-sixth credit?
Lets see, one divided by six = 16.66%
Ahh, its not worth the trouble :)
|Dec-24-11|| ||KingV93: A little too deep for me here. I figured either e6 or xe5 but did not see the pawn push or the knight retreat to free the other rook and bishop. After a little looking e6 goes no where and xe5 creates several difficulties for Black. Deep puzzle, very good.|
|Dec-24-11|| ||morfishine: <KingV93> On your comment: <A little too deep for me here> No need to sell yourself short. In any case, that video on your profile page is quite funny :)|
|Dec-24-11|| ||luzhin: Vasiukov played many beautiful games, but he slightly over-eggs the combo here: although 28.Rxf6 is winning, it is not as crushing as the more obvious 28.Nxg5|
|Dec-24-11|| ||polarx: I think 23... dxe5 is not the best response for black. The real deal comes after 23... Bxe5.|
<23. Rxe5 Bxe5 24. Ne6+>
and provided that black avoids 24...Kg8 (which leads to mate: <23. Rxe5 Bxe5 24. Ne6+ Kg8 25. Qxg5+ Kh7 26. Bc2+ f5 27. Bxf5#>) and instead plays 24...Ke8, I think he is not too bad and much better than in the game continuation.
Can't find anything really decisive for white after <23. Rxe5 Bxe5 24. Ne6+ Ke8>
|Dec-24-11|| ||anandrulez: f4 doesnt win ?|
|Dec-24-11|| ||polarx: Checked other posts and still think 23... Bxe5 is better than 23... dxe5. The lines given after Bxe5 are not conclusive. So I think that means I solved the puzzle.|
|Dec-24-11|| ||Domdaniel: Very difficult to foresee the later moves, especially 26.Nf3 -- I felt sure, in this sort of line, that it would land on e6.|
|Dec-24-11|| ||scormus: I struggled again today. To be honest I thought about either and eventually both Nd6+ and Rxe5 but I picked wrong, at least as far the the game continuation testifies.|
I fancied something along the lines of 23 Nd6+ fxe6 (... Kd8 24 Ba4+) 24 Rxe5 dxe5 25 dxe6. A fun continuation would be ... Rg8 26 Qh7 Rg7 27 Qh8+ Rg8 28 Qh6+ Rg7 29 Rd7 Re8 30 Qh8+ Rg8 31 Qxf6+ exf6 32 Rf7#. Not forcing but OTB it might be easy for B to go wrong here.
A tough one. I'm sure I'd never have got the continuation with Nf3 coming in. Sigh :(
|Dec-24-11|| ||shivasuri4: <polarx>,see some of the 2004 posts.|
|Dec-24-11|| ||Penguincw: I got it nowhere right. :(|
|Dec-24-11|| ||Rosbach: Very hard and couldn't see it.
After checking I see the combination is about winning material. 28 Rxf6 Rxf6 29. Qxg5 Rg6 30. Qxe7.
|Dec-24-11|| ||polarx: I've read those posts. Crafty says: 23...Bxe5 24. Ne6+ Ke8 25. Nxg5 Bf6 26. Nh7 Be5 27. Re1
(eval 1.15; depth 15 ply; 750M nodes)
Hoever, Chessgames.com say they found this line evaluated as decisive for white.
Helloween thought white wins after 23...Bxe5 but, as karlzen pointed, he had not considered
23...Bxe5 24.Ne6+ Ke8 25.Nxg5 Bf6 26.Nh7 Be5 27.Re1 Qc5
I ran the line through rybka and I got:
1. Rxe5 Bxe5 -0.65/15 2. Ne6+ Ke8 -1.00/16 3. Nxg5 +0.29/2 Bf6 -0.72/13
4. Nh7 +1.15/14 Be5 -1.15/13 5. f4 +1.27/13 Bg7 -1.25/13 6. Re1 +1.14/12 Qc5+ -1.42/13
7. Kh2 +1.41/13 Rxh7 -1.41/14 8. Qxh7 +1.46/13 Kf8 -1.60/12 9. Qxh5 +1.60/11 b5 -1.73/13
White may win in the end but I think not after a hard fight. What I mean is it's not straightout catastrophic. Whatever.
|Dec-24-11|| ||Marmot PFL: I saw 23 Rxe5 right away, but thought black would survive if he took with the bishop. Allowing 24 d6 looks really bad.|
|Dec-24-11|| ||Marmot PFL: Maybe what black missed was that after 24 d6 the e5 pawn is pinned to the queen so he can't take the Nd4.|
|Dec-24-11|| ||stukkenjager: 23.Rxe5 Bxe5 24.Ne6+ Ke8 25.Nxg5 Bf6 26.Nh7 Be5 27.Re1 Qc5
(27...a6 28.Ng5 f6 29.Ne6) 28.Ng5 Rf8 29.Bd1 seems more then ok.|
|Dec-24-11|| ||James D Flynn: When I click on the board position I no longer see the moves only the other comments. I gather the rather obvious Rxe5 was played in the game. At first I wasn't sure whether to precede it by Ne6ch, but then could see a good continuation after 23.Ne6ch Ke8 24.Rxe5 Bxe5. Clearly white has to force the advance d6: so 23.Rxe5 if Bxe5 24.Nc6 Qc7 25.Nxe5 d6xe5 26.d6 e7xd6 27.Rxd6 and the threat Rd7 or Rf6 wins eg.Ke8 28.Qxe5ch picks up the R on h8 with check. If black replies d6xe5 24.Ne6ch f7xd6 25,Qxe6 there is no answer to Q threats on F7 or g8. If black instead plays Ke8 25.d6 wins e.g Rd8 27.Nc7ch Kf8 28.d6xe7ch Kxe7 29. Nd5ch wins material.|
|Dec-24-11|| ||chrisowen: 23 casting aspersions take knight rookxe5 (pea cook little in |
debatable) bxe5 ne6!
Lewd comment cry fowl dxe5 d6!
Is as far as I got it.
In have up preaching from the pulpit unleash bishop midknight
Again queen offside so d6 a milly it around freeing bb3 life
Low granny e7 on the loose f5 wheel.
Chair of the board nd4 committee in pry it de-column.
In lovely two moves ahead rxe5 d6 coming good for knight.
|Dec-24-11|| ||Once: Much too complicated for my little brain. I wanted to play 23. Rxe5, but beyond that ... nope, nada, zilch.|
Pretty finish, but way over my head.
Happy christmas, all.
|Dec-24-11|| ||Patriot: I tried solving this late last night before going to bed--big mistake! I needed a clear head on this. But even after a good night's rest I have to say 23.Rxe5 is still unclear. I couldn't find anything conclusive but where everything else is equal, going into an unclear position isn't such a bad thing. We can learn a lot from positions like that.|
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