< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 5 ·
|Jun-06-12|| ||scormus: <sevenseaman .... I had little inkling the Q would come into my bag! I just felt the move was good>
yes, 9 Bxf7+ cries out to be played even without seeing the winning sequence. Game illustrates nicely how drastically B can go wrong in the stodgy positions if he/she overlooks crucial weaknesses.|
|Jun-06-12|| ||agb2002: The material is equal.
The weak f7 square suggests 9.Bxf7+:
A) 9... Kxf7 10.Ng5+
A.1) 10... Kg6(8) 11.Ne6
A.1.a) 11... Qa5 12.Nc4
A.1.a.i) 12... Qa6 13.Nc7 Qa4 14.b3 traps the queen [Q+P vs B+N].
A.1.a.ii) 12... Qa4 13.b3 transposes to A.1.a.i.
A.1.b) 11... Qb6 12.Nc4
A.1.b.i) 12... Qa6 13.Nc7 transposes to A.1.a.i.
A.1.b.ii) 12... Qb5 13.Nc7 Qc5 (13... Qa4 14.b3 + -) 14.b4 also traps the queen.
A.2) 10... Kf8 11.Ne6+ is quicker than the previous lines.
B) 9... Kf(h)8 10.Bxe8 + - [R+P vs B].
|Jun-06-12|| ||BadKnight: A very popular version of ruy lopez has the same trap where black plays Rfe8 without h6.. At first i thought its from a ruy lopez position, but then i realized it is not. curious to see how the game position is reached. i am guessing Rfe8 was the last move before the puzzle position.|
|Jun-06-12|| ||FSR: I confess that I missed this (hangs head in shame). The bishop sac is obvious, but the wrinkle that White ends up mating Black's <queen> is very unusual and never entered my mind.|
|Jun-06-12|| ||erimiro1: Every Philidor defense player must learn that trap, that is based on Black's closed position. The Black construction of pawn at d6, N at d7 and B at e7 blocks the black queen, limits her, and might be dangerous also for the king (see one of Fischer-Fine games from 1960 I think).
When white is moving his pawn to c3 instead of Nc3, the red alert must be working, and Black must also be aware of the threats on the a2-g8 diagonal even after he castels.|
|Jun-06-12|| ||FSR: Cf. Tylor vs Koltanowski, 1929; Fischer vs Reshevsky, 1958; Judit Polgar vs Spassky, 1993 (Judit didn't play the sac, which won instantly, and lost!).|
|Jun-06-12|| ||Caissas Clown: The comment by Thom Yorke in 2004(!)was probably tongue in cheek , but if not , there is a "refutation". Yesterday I watched a documentary featuring the delightful Susan Polgar . She said,smiling,that every time she beat a man , he'd say he had a headache/cold/virus or whatever and that she had never beaten a healthy male opponent!|
|Jun-06-12|| ||sevenseaman: <Caissas Clown > <She said,smiling,that every time she beat a man , he'd say he had a headache/cold/virus or whatever and that she had never beaten a healthy male opponent!>|
Thats a delightful quote to dig up.... and share. Thanks.
|Jun-06-12|| ||Tiggler: <Caissas Clown: The comment by Thom Yorke in 2004(!)was probably tongue in cheek, but if not , there is a "refutation".>|
The puzzle is about two knights trapping a Q. Any refutation to that?
|Jun-06-12|| ||Phony Benoni: <FSR> Another famous example is W Von Holzhausen vs Tarrasch, 1912. And, if you want to stretch it a bit, Philidor vs NN, 1790.|
|Jun-06-12|| ||whiteshark: <9.Bxf7+!> clears the melange.|
|Jun-06-12|| ||Dr. J: <Tiggler: < Blunderdome: So, 10...Kg6 then? > 11. Ne6 and 12 Nc4 trap the Q just the same.>|
True, but I think 11 N2f3, threatening Nh4+, is even stronger.
|Jun-06-12|| ||uldinch: Retracing back to the possible cause of all this mess, why hasn't dear feminine Monica played 4. ... d5 instead of the humbler d6? Without any of the cyber-smart gadgets at my command, I rely on the community's wise advice, many thanks.|
|Jun-06-12|| ||Caissas Clown: <Tiggler: <Caissas Clown: The comment by Thom Yorke in 2004(!)was probably tongue in cheek, but if not , there is a "refutation".>
The puzzle is about two knights trapping a Q. Any refutation to that?>|
It's "refuting" Yorke's stupidity, not the combo.
|Jun-06-12|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: In this opening position, material is even (all units are on the board) and the position shows almost mirror symmetry, except for the critical difference of white's actively positioned Bc4 versus black's defensively positioned Be7. The primary consequence is that black has a serious weakness at f7/e6 that white is prepared to exploit. |
9.Bf7+! wins decisive material:
A) 9... Kxf7 10.Ng5+ Kg6/g8 (Kf8 11.Ne6+ wins the BQ immediately) 11.Ne6 Qb6 12.Nc4 Qb5 (Qa6 13.Nc7 wins the Q) 13.a4 Qa6 14.Nc7 wins the Q.
A.1) 11... Qa5 12.Nc4 Qb5 (Qa6 13.Nc7) 13.a4 reaches the same result.
B) 9... Kf8/h8 10.Bxe8 wins exchange+P (and game), but 10.Ng5! is even stronger.
Time for review...
|Jun-06-12|| ||FSR: <Phony Benoni: <FSR> Another famous example ... if you want to stretch it a bit, Philidor vs NN, 1790>|
I would say that that game (with which I was not familiar) is actually the closest analogue to this one. In both cases the point of the sac is to win the queen for two minor pieces rather than to mate Black's king. I recall that Chernev in <The 1000 Best Short Games of Chess> gave a similar (albeit simpler) example, which went 1.e4 d6 2.Bc4 Nd7 3.Nf3 g6? 4.Ng5?! (4.Bxf7+! Lusgin vs M Joffe, 1968) Nh6? 5.Bxf7+! (Black resigned here in a game won by the winningest player ever, Prince Dadian vs Doubrava, 1895) Nxf7 6.Ne6. J Cukierman vs NN, 1934
|Jun-06-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: Wednesday, June 6th 2012
<9. Bxf7+ Kxf7>
(9...else 10. Bxe8 )
<10. Ng5+ Kg8 11. Ne6 Qb6/...Qa5 12. Nc4! Qc5>
(12...Qa6 13. Nc7 and Black's Q is trapped; 12...Qb5 13. Nc7 Qc5 14. b4 Black's Q is trapped)
<13. b4! Qb5 14. Nc7> 1-0 as Black's Q is trapped.
|Jun-06-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: Quick synopsis of my score in recent puzzles:
<Saturday, June 2nd, 2012>
No answer submitted.
<Sunday, June 3rd, 2012>
0.80/1. Ending the week of May 28th - June 3rd with a 5.30 out 7 with a pass.
<Monday, June 4th, 2012>
<Tuesday, June 5th, 2012>
|Jun-06-12|| ||FSR: <<ThomYorke: I donīt believe that a woman can see a combination like this one.>|
Caissas Clown: The comment by Thom Yorke in 2004(!)was probably tongue in cheek , but if not , there is a "refutation". Yesterday I watched a documentary featuring the delightful Susan Polgar . She said,smiling,that every time she beat a man , he'd say he had a headache/cold/virus or whatever and that she had never beaten a healthy male opponent!>
<I don't know what to make of Yorke's comment, which if serious is of course ridiculous. But, oddly, Susan's (stronger) sister failed to play a similar, and very simple, combination in Judit Polgar vs Spassky, 1993.
|Jun-06-12|| ||James D Flynn: 9.Bxf7+ Kxf7 10.Ng5+ Kg8 `11.Ne6 Qa5(or Qb6) 12.Nc4 Qb5(or Qa6 13.Nc7 wins the Q) 13.Nc7 Qc5 14.b4 and the Black Q has no squares to run to.|
|Jun-06-12|| ||Memethecat: <<<CONSUME LESS!> BE KIND!> PLAY CHESS!>|
9.Bxf7+ Kxf7 10.Ng5+ Kg8 (Kf8??)
11.Ne6 Qb6/Qa5 12.Nc4 Qb5 (12...Qa6 13.Nc7 loses Q)
13.Nc7 Qc5 14.Be3 Loses Q, R, fridge freezer, cuddly toy & game
(12...Qb5 13.a4 Qa6 14.Nc7) also works.
Sooo, blacks best is probably 9.Bxf7+ Kh8 10.Bxe8 Qxe8
|Jun-06-12|| ||Patriot: The first move that comes to mind is 9.Bxf7+. Then after 9...Kxf7 I wanted to play either 10.Qb3+ or 10.Ng5+.|
10.Qb3+ d5 11.exd5 cxd5 12.Nxe5+ Nxe5 13.Rxe5 This doesn't seem to work.
10.Ng5+ Kg8 11.Ne6 Qb6/Qa5 12.Nc4 Qa6 13.Nc7
It took me a while to see this line since I was looking for a forced mate--distractions! I'll have to be careful about this in the future.
|Jun-06-12|| ||Patriot: <agb2002> In line <A.1.a.i) 12... Qa6 13.Nc7 Qa4 14.b3 traps the queen [Q+P vs B+N].>, what's wrong with 14.Qxa4? For example, 14...b5 15.Qd1 bxc4 16.Nc7 .|
And the same thing in line <A.1.a.ii) 12... Qa4 13.b3 transposes to A.1.a.i.> (13.Qxa4).
|Jun-06-12|| ||dufferps: I often feel that the masters resign too early. White has performed a nice sequence and will take black's queen. So be it. Black should accept that and start developing her pieces -- something like 11. ... Nc5, 12.Nxd8 Rxd8.|
Black has traded her Queen and a pawn for White's Bishop and Knight. White has the advantage, but there is a long game ahead.
It would be a mistake for Black to try to save her Queen with a futile flight along the dark squares diagonal. It would only allow White to develop her other Knight and Bishop while wasting moves pushing the doomed Queen. But a simple developmental move like 11. ... Nc5 leaves Black in the game.
|Jun-06-12|| ||kevin86: There is neither a mate or the quick winning of the queen. Instead,black's queen is left to spin out of control and time lost to save here is deadly for her.|
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