< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Oct-14-10|| ||WickedPawn: As <gofer> mentions, doesn't 25. Qb7+ (followed by 26. Bb8) lead to the same outcome?|
|Oct-14-10|| ||Stormbringer: Didn't get it. Really cute move. Very impressed. :D |
Happy that Kramnik drew a couple of games because when he was winning the rabid fanboys (both for and against) were all going psycho. :D
Though I have to admit I would love him to win a few more and give them all aneurysms. Guess that makes me a bad person. :-/
|Oct-14-10|| ||JohnBoy: I agree with <AGOJ> that black blundered big time with 22...h5. But white was hardly telegraphing his intentions on a6 for much of the game. Just with 22.Qd3.|
|Oct-14-10|| ||johnlspouge: < <WickedPawn> wrote: As <gofer> mentions, doesn't 25. Qb7+ (followed by 26. Bb8) lead to the same outcome? >|
Toga rates them as perfectly equal, a transposition.
< <TheBish> wrote: [snip] It will be interesting to see how many say they found 25. Bb8(!) when 25. Qb7+ first is much more obvious. >
I saw 25.Qb7+, so yes...
|Oct-14-10|| ||LIFE Master AJ: My move is 25.Bb8.
It plugs the hole, gets rid of Black's threat (to my ♗), traps the Rook, and threatens Qb7+, winning the Black Rook.
Looks pretty convincing ... but I only spent about 1-2 minutes on the whole shebang ... did NOt check it with Fritz ...
Time to check.
|Oct-14-10|| ||LIFE Master AJ: 2004? That long ago?
Maybe there was a good reason i got this so quickly.
There was a website with dozens of puzzles for that Olympiad. (I went looking for it, but its gone now.)
I (quickly) played through the game. (I feel sure now that I had seen this puzzle - or game - before.)
|Oct-14-10|| ||patzer3844: difficult...not medium|
|Oct-14-10|| ||Patriot: I may have spent more than 5 minutes on this, because the immediate threatening move was not that obvious to me. Usually that's the way it is, isn't it? If you so much as consider the key move then everything falls into place, but if you don't see it right away then it can be very difficult to consider it later.|
Really it's more logical to see 25.Qb7+ and 26.Bb8 as <gofer> mentioned, if you're thought process is to consider checks first. This particular trap seems to be missing from my tactical arsenal as well as other kibitzers. Even after considering 25.Qb7+ the trap was still not obvious to me.
But since that pattern was missing from my arsenal and the bishop is hanging and knowing this is a puzzle, my thought process followed to save the bishop and finally 25.Bb8! came to mind. If I was familiar with the trap, there's no doubt I would've seen the 25.Qb7+ and 26.Bb8 line first.
|Oct-14-10|| ||Arcturus: Checkmate !!!!!!
. . . . Just not the king this time!
|Oct-14-10|| ||patzer2: Perhaps 22...a5 might be a slight improvement over 22...h5, but it isn't necessarily the decisive mistake. |
Instead of 23...g5?, 23...Kg8 or 23...Qc8 appears to offer Black reasonable chances of holding the position.
Instead of 24...Qe8??, 23...Kg8 puts up much more resistance and gives Black some practical chances of holding the draw, even though computer analysis seems to indicate White with strong play can probably force the win.
One possibility is 24... Kg8 25. Rb7 Qc8 26. Bc7 Qe8 27. a4 Bf8 28. c4 Rc8 29. cxd5 Qe1+ 30. Qf1 Qxf1+ 31. Kxf1 cxd5 32. Rxa7 Kf7 33. a5 Ke6 34. a6 Bd6 35. Bb6 Rc1+ 36. Ke2 Rc2+ 37. Kd3 Rxf2 38. Ra8 Ra2 39. a7 Kd7 40. Bc5 Bxc5 41. dxc5 Kc7 42. Rf8 Kb7 43. a8Q+ Rxa8 44. Rxa8 Kxa8 45. Kd4 (+6.00 @ 22 dept, Fritz 10).
|Oct-14-10|| ||Eggman: Spent about 45 seconds on this and missed it. Dang.
My first thought was 25.Qb7+ followed by 26.Qxa8 and 27.Rb8, but only led to an even ending, so then I reversed the order of moves with 25.Rb8 and if 25...Rxb8 26.Qxa7+ and 27.Bxb8, with an outside passer for White, but in this line ...Qe1+ (either at move 25 or move 27) followed by ...Qxf2 is a tad inconvenient. I should have taken more time.
|Oct-14-10|| ||kevin86: A very unusual (and brilliant) interference move! Black must lose rook for bishop. Wow!|
|Oct-14-10|| ||dzechiel: <al wazir: ... For that matter, I would like to know how much time Campora spent on it. He may have been thinking about this combination as early as move 23.>|
This is so true. When you are one of the players of a game (as opposed to being presented with the position without any history) you have been carrying ideas and themes with you for many moves.
I'm guessing that Campora spent just a few seconds on 25 Bb8, because this was part of his plan for some time.
What would be interesting to know is when the idea of 25 Bb8 first presented itself to him.
|Oct-14-10|| ||howlwolf: I am with you Bish--I went with Qb7+ first as well and found this almost instantly.|
|Oct-14-10|| ||chrisowen: See if you enter spar advantage bb8 bathings allowing dressing down a ra8. I have no idea if the sponge actually works. But I think it should. Erstwhile opening the bishop sawn a vein will I am qa6 spills blacks bloody claret. Toast after Qe4 massaging service squash club qb7 makes one hell of a racket.|
|Oct-14-10|| ||Eggman: <<See if you enter spar advantage bb8 bathings allowing dressing down a ra8. I have no idea if the sponge actually works. But I think it should. Erstwhile opening the bishop sawn a vein will I am qa6 spills blacks bloody claret. Toast after Qe4 massaging service squash club qb7 makes one hell of a racket.>>|
I frickin' LOVE translation programs! Lewis Carrol and John Lennon on their best day couldn't never come up with this stuff! Genius!!
|Oct-14-10|| ||JG27Pyth: I think the ending here after 27...Rxb8 28.Qxb8 is good practice against the computer. White should be entirely won, but Crafty is cannot be brow-beaten into resigning and can be very annoying with her Queen.|
@JohnLSpouge: Welcome back from your sabbatical! I'm glad Toga agrees the two lines transpose. I couldn't figure out which I liked better and went with Qb7+ first as "more forcing."
|Oct-14-10|| ||wals: Black's express ride to ruin:-
(+3.05):24...Qe8. leaves the King exposed and opens up the possibility of a three card trick, Bb8, Rxb8,Qxa7+,Kg6,Rxb8,etc.,.
A better path,
Analysis by Rybka 4 x64 :depth 22: 5 min:
1. (0.72): 24...Kg6 25.Rb7 Qe8 26.Be3 Qc8 27.f4 g4 28.hxg4 hxg4 29.f5+ Kh7 30.Kh2 Qe8 31.Bf4 Kh8 32.Qd3 Qh5+ 33.Kg1 Re8 34.Bg3 Bh6 35.Bf2 Bf4 36.g3
2. (1.17): 24...Qc8 25.Rb7+ Kg8 26.Bc7 Qe8 27.c4 Kh7
|Oct-14-10|| ||ounos: I saw the key concept instantly, because I have played the same move with the same, rook trapping, idea (but under much more desperate conditions), against a quite strong player, Konstantinos Markidis, but I can't find the game.|
Anyway, Qb7+ and then Bb8 also works - to give black a little bit of false hope that he'll get away with it. Psychologically better :)
|Oct-14-10|| ||fm avari viraf: After 25.Bb8 Black's claustrophobic Rook seals his fate.|
|Oct-14-10|| ||Fezzik: Wow, I completely missed this one, even though I have seen similar ideas before. Well done!|
|Oct-14-10|| ||Marmot PFL: It took me 2 looks at the position to see 25 Bb8, maybe 5 minutes on each. Once its clear that attacking moves with rook or queen don't work, and that the bishop must move, then where does it go? In a game Be3 would be very likely, but of course it's not a "winner". Finally hit on Bb8, a nice exploitation of the open file, exposed king and trapped piece (take your pick).|
|Oct-14-10|| ||johnlspouge: < <JG27Pyth> wrote: [snip] @JohnLSpouge: Welcome back from your sabbatical! [snip] >|
It's nice to see you are still around, too <Pyth> :)
My sabbatical is from posting analysis every day and is likely to continue, at least until the end of the year. More analysis seems superfluous anyway, given the present quality of kibitzing.
< I'm glad Toga agrees the two lines transpose. I couldn't figure out which I liked better and went with Qb7+ first as "more forcing." >
I saw 25.Qb7+ "immediately", so I am prejudiced. I agree that it is more forcing than 25.Bb8.
|Oct-14-10|| ||DarthStapler: I didn't get it|
|Oct-15-10|| ||njchess: I got it, but it took me over five minutes, which is a long time for OTB play. Tough puzzle.|
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