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|Jan-24-13|| ||YouRang: From Wikipedia:
<The zwischenzug (German: pronounced [ˈtsvɪʃənˌtsu˘°k] "intermediate move") is a chess tactic in which a player, instead of playing the expected move (commonly a recapture of the capturer of a piece that the opponent has just captured) first interposes another move, posing an immediate threat that the opponent must answer, then plays the expected move (Hooper & Whyld 1992:460) (Golombek 1977:354). Ideally, the zwischenzug changes the situation to the player's advantage, such as by gaining material or avoiding what would otherwise be a strong continuation for the opponent.>
IMO, this definition is general enough to satisfactorily describe 27...Rd7!
|Jan-24-13|| ||Phony Benoni: <YouRang> Perhaps "zwischenzug" is the best idea. That's usually thought of in connection with a capture or threat by the opponent, but the definition does seem broad enough for this example.|
It reminds me of something I've called the "hiccup" combination. An example is Reshevsky vs J Gallagher, 1990, with White to play his 21st move:
click for larger view
White would like to play 21.Qa2 with a double attack on the bishop and the f7 square; however, Black defends by 21...Rxb7. Instead White plays just part of the winning move with <21.Qa5>. This forces Black to weaken his defenses with <21...Rd6>, and now White finishes his threat move with <22.Qa2.>
21.Qa5 is the "hiccup".
Here's another example, from R Swinkels vs S Swaminathan, 2010, White to make his sixteenth move:
click for larger view
<16.e3> is the hiccup, with 17.e4 to follow after the knight moves to e6 or f5.
In the broad sense, these are "zwischenzugs" as well.
|Jan-24-13|| ||maxi: Zwischenzug is such a general denomination that it is not conveying much info. In that sense "development with gain of time" would also be Zwischezug, but it carries more info. Deflection is also a Zwischenzug, as is decoy.|
|Jan-24-13|| ||Once: Hmm ... well, yes, but ...
... a zwischenzug is literally an "in-between move". One player breaks off in the middle of a sequence, plays a move with a threat, then continues with the sequence.
But that doesn't seem to be what happens here. Black plays a preparatory move not an inbetween move. There is no sequence in which Rd7 is "in between".
|Jan-24-13|| ||Phony Benoni: OK, then maybe <Tiggler> is right and what we have is basically an unpinning maneuver. A piece is pinned if a move off the pinning line would lead to a catastropic capture of a different piece. Here, the "catastrophe" is not the capture itself, but the fact that it occurs with check.|
27...Rd7 neutralizes the catastrophe. If Black could gain a tempo with a move like ...Kb7 or ...Kc7, it would have the same effect.
|Jan-24-13|| ||YouRang: <Once> How would you classify the 21.Qa5 "hiccup" move in <Phony Benoni>'s first example above?|
To me, it looks conceptually the same as our 27...Rd7, no?
|Jan-24-13|| ||YouRang: <Once> BTW, I do see your point about 27...Rd7 not being "in between". The definition of zwischenzug does speak of an *expected* move. I don't think we can say that ...Nf4 is "expected".|
It's just a tactic black wants to play, but he needs to first remove the counterplay in a manner that's forceful enough that white lacks time to defend against the tactic.
It seems that there ought to be a name for that.
|Jan-24-13|| ||maxi: <YouRang> Black needs to make a move to prevent a move White can make but without giving White the move. That's why I am suggesting the name "time warp".|
|Jan-24-13|| ||Phony Benoni: Threat avoidance?|
|Jan-24-13|| ||YouRang: <maxi> Well, "time warp" works for me, except that it seems unsatisfying that we should still be needing to invent another new term at all. |
Of the *established* chess terms, it seems that zwischenzug is the closest to Rd7.
Zwischenzug describes a move that is:
(3) preceding an expected move.
We want to describe a move that is:
(3) preceding (and preparing for) a tactic.
If we do need a new term, perhaps for consistency, we should look for a German word. And ideally it should begin with the letter Z. ;-)
How about <Zubereitung>?
It conveys preparation, accommodation, making ready...
|Jan-24-13|| ||Abdel Irada: I would argue that the winning tactic, in this case, *was* the "expected move," as evidenced by White's immediate resignation upon realizing he couldn't prevent it. By this logic, ...Rd7 is indeed a zwischenzug.|
<YouRang>'s idea is creative and I applaud it, but I don't think it's necessary here.
|Jan-25-13|| ||maxi: <Abdel Irada>: I quote myself: <Zwischenzug is such a general denomination that it is not conveying much info. In that sense "development with gain of time" would also be Zwischezug, but it carries more info. Deflection is also a Zwischenzug, as is decoy.>|
|Jan-25-13|| ||Abdel Irada: That's actually sort of my point, <maxi>.|
Some tactical motives have specific designations and others don't; the latter often fall into the catch-all "zwischenzug," and I think that's about as specific as we can get here.
Perhaps there is merit in <YouRang>'s suggestion, and we should *create* another and more specific category for moves like this. But that's an ambitious proposition, and depends on a lot of cooperation, so for the moment we may be best advised to settle for the generic nomenclature.
|Jan-25-13|| ||YouRang: Well, back to the game. All I have to say is that 27...Rd7 was a fine example of zubereitung. You don't see a zubereitung like that every day.|
|Jan-25-13|| ||Abdel Irada: <All I have to say is that 27...Rd7 was a fine example of zubereitung. You don't see a zubereitung like that every day.>|
Well, if this new term *isn't* adopted, it won't be for want of trying. :-D
|Jan-25-13|| ||rilkefan: <YouRang>, "Vorbereitung" would have less of a foodish flavor than "Zu"usw.|
|Jan-25-13|| ||Once: I don't see zwischenzug as a general catch-all term. It's meaning is quite clear. It's an in between move. And to be an in-between move it has to be ... well, in-between something and something else. |
It's a bit like a sandwich. A sandwich is food between two slices of bread. You would be stretching a point to call something a sandwich simply because it had bread in its construction somewhere. Cheese on toast is not a sandwich.
|Jan-25-13|| ||YouRang: <rilkefan> So, "zubereitung" means preparation, as in a recipe? lol!|
Well, I have to assume that you know what you're talking about, which give you an unfair advantage over me.
All I know is that every German tactical chess term in the English language must begin with the letter Z. For example, "zugzwang", "zwischenzug", er, ...and so on.
I suppose an exception to this rule might be "fingerfehler", although it's considered to be a generally poor tactic.
|Jan-25-13|| ||Shams: <Once> I'm with you 100% on the meaning of "zwischenzug", but surely they serve open-faced sammies in England?? Delicious cold, but even better broiled, where the lack of a top bun exposes your cheesy and meaty goods directly to the heat. Yummy!|
|Jan-25-13|| ||maxi: <Once> There are several tactics themes, and one would like to have a name for them. Zwischenzug is a general term for an in-between move, as its name in German describes. "Development with gain of time" is a Zwischenzug before the next developing move. "Deflection" and "decoy" are obviously Zwischenzugs. There are some tactics that are not Zwischenzugs, such as "x-rays" and "double-attack", but even "interference" is a Zwischenzug if you think about it. A theme as beautiful as the one that appears in this game deserves a name, be it that we succeed in giving it one or not. Zwischenzug is too general a term and it does not convey much info at all.|
|Jan-27-13|| ||Once: <Shams> An open sandwich is ... an open sandwich. In other words, not quite a common or garden sandwich. In need of qualification. A variant. A sub-species of the genus sandwich.|
Delicious? Sometimes. But in need of another name, at least to my mind. It's all a bit ... Scandinavian. And I don't mean 1...d5
|Jan-28-13|| ||Tiggler: <Once: <Shams>> Of course a real sandwich has two pieces of bread. The whole point of it is to package the food between to make a portable meal requiring no plate or cutlery.|
If the Earl of Sandwich had been german, it would have been called a zwischenbrotessen.
|Jan-28-13|| ||thomastonk: <Tiggler> Fun question: do you know that the (fourth) Earl of Sandwich had indeed a relation to chess?!|
|Jan-28-13|| ||Tiggler: <thomastonk> OK, you got me. What was it? |
(I could have said that pawns are the soul of chess, and chess is the soul of the nobility).
|Jan-29-13|| ||thomastonk: <Tiggler> John Montague, the fourth Earl of Sandwich, subscribed 1748 10 copies of Philidor's "L'Analyze des Echeces", and then many others subscribed copies, too. So, this book, maybe the most important in the history of the game, could be printed in 1749.|
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