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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing > |
| Jul-26-09 |
| Sbetsho: Yay, I got this one right only after 2 seconds glance. I haven't seen this game before either. The idea of Bd3 was just too obvious for me. Not so insane. |
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| Jul-26-09 |
| gofer: <openingspecialist>, <dzecheil> after 24 Bd3 g6
25 Qg4 Kg7
I prefer Qxh4 which seems to lead to mate in 6 more moves against all but one reather suicidal defense and my original post didn't go for the cleanest line which after Qd8 is to reply Ng5 rather than Rxf7 winning the queen... 26 Qxh4
26 ... Rh8 27 Qf6+ Kh7 (otherwise mate) 28 Qxf7+ Kh6 29 Qxg6# 26 ... Qd8 27 Ng5 Rh8 28 Rxf7 Kg8 29 Rh7 mate in 3 at worst 26 ... Qd8 27 Ng5 Qxg5 28 Qxg5 f5 (black is trying to stop Qf6+ Rf4 Rh4 Rh8#) 29 exf6+ Rxf6 30 Qxf6+ with mate in 2 more Now for the most suicidal version...
26 ... Be7! 27 Qxe7 Qd8 28 Rxf7 Rxf7 29 Qxd8 still winning easily for white, but is takes a very long time, like around move 47... :-) |
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| Jul-26-09 |
| Patriot: I spent perhaps 10 minutes trying to find a good candidate, other than 24.Bxb4 (since the bishop is hanging). I wanted to move the e2-bishop so the queen can come to h5, giving mate threats with Ng5. It's funny because at first I looked at 24.Bb5 (threatening 25.Bxd7) but this threat looks cheapened by the fact that black has many ways to respond. Then 24.Bd3 came to mind with the idea: 24.Bd3 Rxd2 25.Qh5 Rxd3 26.Ng5  . Even though white hangs two pieces, he can keep the threats going. I also looked at 24.Bd3 g6 25.Qg4 Kg7 briefly and didn't spend any more time on this but saw enough to know that black is on the defensive. Maybe I don't get full credit, but Bd3 was my choice. Some suggested 24.Bd3 Rxd2 25.Bh7+. Good job! |
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| Jul-26-09 |
| openingspecialist: <gofer> you are quite right. When I was doing my analysis I was looking for OTB moves. I definitely would have played both 24. Bd3 and 26. Nf4 OTB. 26. Nf4 is much easier to understand than it looks. The idea is simply to play 27. Nh5+ and 28. Nf6, 29. Qxh4 and 30. Qh7#. Nf4 also threatens Nxg6. The responses for black vary stopping mate in 4. The fundamentals are still there. I don't care about my d2 bishop. I'm sure <dzecheil> will agree. It is nothing but fools gold. I don't think I would get into this position as white. For one I don't have the foresight to play moves Like Nh3 although when I see that position I say yes! |
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| Jul-26-09 |
| sfm: What a move 23.b4 is. Really. Don't do business with Mr. Shirov. 23.b4
"- Dear Korchnoi, I can't avoid losing the b pawn anyway. Sooo, if you take it now I at least can swap off my problematic bishop on d2." 23.-,Bxb4
"- Dearest Shirov, I can't stand a friend having a bad bishop. I kindly take your pawn!" 24.Bd3
"- Oh, did I forget to tell you? It was also a problem that your bishop covered g5, which I will need for my knight to help paying your lonely king a visit..." |
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Jul-26-09
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| ToTheDeath: Not that hard, took me a few seconds. The key is the standard attack on h7 combined with Black's king having NO defenders. |
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| Jul-26-09 |
| tivrfoa: oh I'm so happy. I think 5 seconds in a sunday xD. bd3 opening space to the queen who also has the support of the knight. |
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| Jul-26-09 |
| OBIT: After 24. Bd3 Rxd2, both 25. Qh5 and 25. Bh7+ force mate, so let's not quibble about which move is better. Putting the h-pawn on h7 would make the position a better tactical exercise (then only 25. Bh7+ works), but then it's still a hard fight after 24...g6. No one has mentioned 24...Bb5 today as a defensive try, so I will now. After 25. Bxb4 Rxb4 (or 25...Bxd3 26. Bxa3 Bxf1 27. Qxf1 and White will be a piece up after the bishop captures one of the rooks) 26. Bxb5 Qxb5 27. Qh5 Qd3 (not 27...g6, as 28. Qh6 gives White a winning attack) 28. Ng5 Qg6, and... hmm... where's the win? OK, so after 24...Bb5 25. Bxb4 Rxb4, let's try that sac on h7: 26. Bh7+ Kxh7 (26...Kh8 27. Qh5 mates) 27. Qh5+ Kg8 28. Ng5 Bd3 29. Rxf7 Qd8 (to stop 30. Rxf8+) 30. Rxg7+! Kxg7 31. Nxe6+ Kg8 32. Qg4+ Kf7 33. Nxd8+ Rxd8 34. Rc7+ and mates. So in this line, Bh7+ works and might even be necessary, cool. |
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| Jul-26-09 |
| WhiteRook48: the moves are too quiet for me to get |
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| Jul-26-09 |
| gofer: gofer: <OBIT "No one has mentioned 24...Bb5 today as a defensive try,"> Well that's because any move other than 24 ... g6 is immediately losing for black. So... 24 ... Bb5 like nearly every single move for black is immediately fatal (see below). So 24 ... g6 is actually forced otherwise its mate in 6 for white! Two examples of the forced mate are as follows, but there are others, they may even be quicker, but I was not looking for quick, I was looking for forced, just to keep things straightforward. One option is...
24 Bd3 Bb5
25 Bh7+ Kxh7
26 Qh5+ Kg8
27 Ng5 Ra8/Rb8/Rc8/Rd8/Re8 (which is forced to stop 28 Qh7#) 28 Qxf7+ Kh8
29 Qh5+ Kg8
30 Qh7#
Another option is...
24 Bd3 Bb5
25 Bh7+ Kh8
26 Qh5 Ra8/Rb8/Rc8/Rd8/Re8 (which is forced to stop 27 Bg6+ (or Bxg6+ if black tries 26... g6) Kg8 28 Qh7#) 27 Bb1/Bc2/Bd3/Be4 Kg8
28 Qxf7+ Kh8
29 Qh5+ Kg8
30 Qh7# |
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| Jul-26-09 |
| OBIT: <gofer>After 24. Bd3 Bb5 25. Bh7+ Kxh7 26. Qh5+ Kg8 27. Ng5, you are missing 27...Bd3. Patch that hole and you've got it. |
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Jul-26-09
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| David2009: <OBIT: <gofer>After 24. Bd3 Bb5 25. Bh7+ Kxh7 26. Qh5+ Kg8 27. Ng5, you are missing 27...Bd3. Patch that hole and you've got it.> How about 25 Bxb4 first Rxb4 (else a piece goes) 26 Bh7+ Kxh7 27 Qh5+ Kg8 28 Ng5 Bd3 29 Nxf7 Bh7 (or Rxf7 30 Qxf7+ Kh7 31 Qh5+ Kg8 32 Rc8+ mating) 30 Ng5 and I cannot see a defense for Black. <OBIT: After 24. Bd3 Rxd2, both 25. Qh5 and 25. Bh7+ force mate, so let's not quibble about which move is better.> You are quite right - apologies to <dzechiel>! |
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| Jul-26-09 |
| sfm: OBIT's sac is the fastest way to mate - but those who like that one could also choose (after 24.-,Bb5 25.Bxb4,Rxb4(?)):
26.Bh7+,Kh8 27.Qh5+,Kg8 28.Ng5,Bd3 29.Qxf7+ |
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Jul-26-09
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| Domdaniel: Incredible: I actually got this inside a couple of minutes. Rather, I decided the immediate Bd3 generated enough threats to outweigh anything of black's, including the loose bishop on d2. Whether I saw enough of the ensuing tactics is another question. |
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Jul-26-09
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| Domdaniel: Interesting game, too. I often play the Wade Variation (...Qb6, ...Bd7, ...Bb5) as black; but Korchnoi, after feinting in that direction, transposed back to the mainline with ...Nc6. Maybe my familiarity with these advance French positions - and the attacking power of white's LSB, if not exchanged off - helped me to see what was going on. |
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Jul-26-09
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| agb2002: Black is a pawn ahead and threatens to take White's DSB. However, his castle has a number of weaknesses and most of his forces are on the other side of the board. The obvious 24.Bxb4 Qxb4 25.Bd3 seems to improve Black's chances after 25... Qd2. Another idea was 24.Bh5 to give the queen access to the king's side but after 24... Rxd2 25.Bxf7+ Rxf7 (25... Rh7(8) 26.Qh5#) 26.Qh5 Be8 27.Ng5 Rxf1+ she is lost. Therefore, 24.Bd3:
A) 24... Rxd2 25.Qh5
A.1) 25... Rxd3 26.Ng5 R(a-e)8 27.Qxf7+ Kh8 28.Qh5+ Kg8 29.Qh7#. A.2) 25... g6 26.Bxg6 fxg6 27.Qxg6+ Kh8 28.Ng5 + -.
A.3) 25... f5 26.Ng5 R(a-e)8 27.Qf7+ Kh8 28.Rf4 + -.
A.4) 25... R(a-e)8 26.Qxf7+ Kh7(8) 27.Qh5+ Kg8 28.Qh7#. B) 24... Bxd2 is similar to A.
C) 24... f5 25.exf6
C.1) 25... B(R)x2 26.Bh7+
C.1.a) 26... Kf7 27.Qh5+ g6 28.Qxg6#.
C.1.b) 26... Kh8 27.Qh5 Rxf6 28.Bg6+ Kg8 29.Rxf6 gxf6 30.Qh7+ Kf8 31.Qf7#. C.1.c) 26... Kxh7 27.Qh5+ Kg8 28.Ng5 Rxf6 (28... R(a-e)8 29.Qh7+ Kf8 30.Qh8#) 29.Rxf6 gxf6 30.Qf7+ Kh8 31.Qh7#. C.2) 25... e5 26.Bh7+
C.2.a) 26... Kf7 27.Qh5+ Ke6 (27... g6 28.Bxg6+ and mate next) 28.Qxe5+ Kf7 29.Ng5#; C.2.b) 26... Kh8 27.Qh5 Rxf6 (27... Bg4 28.Qxg4 Rxf6 29.Bxb4) 28.Rxf6 Qxf6 (28... gxf6 29.Bg6+ and mate in two) 29.Ng5 Rxd2 (29... Bxd2 30.Rc8+ Bxc8+ 31.Qe8+ Qf8 32.Qxf8#; 29... g6 30.Bxg6+ Kg7(8) 31.Qh7+ Kf8 32.Bxb4+ Rxb4 33.Qxd7) 30.Nf7+ Qxf7 31.Qxf7 Kxh7 32.Qxd7 + -. C.2.c) 26... Kxh7 27.Qh5+ Kg8 28.f7+ Rxf7 29.Qxf7+ Kh7(8) 30.Bxb4 Qxb4 (30... Bxh3 31.Qh5+ Kg8 32.Rf8#) 31.Qxd7 Qd2 32.Qxd5 + -. D) 24... g6 25.Bxb4 followed by Qg4, Rf6, Ng5, Rcf1.
Not quite satisfied with line D but it's enough for me. |
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Jul-26-09
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| wals: The following may help those seeking help.Event "Drammen International Chess Festival"]
[Site "Drammen NOR"]
[Date "2004.12.30"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Alexey Shirov"]
[Black "Viktor Korchnoi"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C02"]
[WhiteElo "2726"]
[BlackElo "2601"]
[Annotator "Rybka 3 1-cpu (30m)"]
[PlyCount "49"]
{C02: French: Advance Variation 20. Nh3 (20. Rc1 Ra3 21. Bh5 Nc6 ) 20... Nc2 21. Bd2 Na3  lack threatens to win material:  a3xb1 22. Rc1 Rb2 23. b4 (23. Bh5) 23... Bxb4 24.(+ 3.48 ) Bd3 g6 25. Qg4 1-0 |
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Jul-26-09
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| sackman: I got this one, perhaps because like Domdaniel I play the French as black. Thank you to those of you who took the time to post such comprehensive analysis! Nice trap by Shirov but surprising that someone as experienced as Korchnoi did not "feel" that a kingside so devoid of pieces was not asking for trouble. |
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| Jul-26-09 |
| OBIT: <David2009>After 24. Bd3 Bb5 25. Bxb4 Rxb4 26. Bh7+ Kxh7 27. Qh5+ Kg8 28. Ng5 Bd3 29. Nxf7 Bf5! looks like the best defense to me. Then if 30. Rxf5 exf5 31. Ng5 Qh6 ("Hey, where did she come from?!") wins for Black. Or, 30. Ng5 Rb1 appears to hold; for example 31. Rxb1 (31. Rxf5?? Rxc1+) Nxb1 32. Rxf5 Rxf5 33. Qh7+ Kf8 34. Qh8+ Ke7 35. Qxg7+ Kd8 and Black squirms out. IMHO 29. Rxf7 is best, which I analyzed above. It looks like a forced mate to me. By the way, I think <gofer's> approach (omitting 25. Bxb4) also works, so long as he transposes back to this line at some point by playing Bxb4. In other words, playing Bxb4 right away isn't critical, but it has to be played eventually, else the Black bishop can help out in the defense. |
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| Jul-26-09 |
| gofer: Apologies <OBIT> for not seeing the point of 24 ...Bd5. <David2009> thanks for putting me straight... So are there any obvious holes with the line as suggested? 24. Bd3 Bb5
25. Bh7+ Kxh7
26. Qh5+ Kg8
27. Ng5 Bd3
Well 28 Rxf7 seems to kill this pretty quickly! White is threatening 29 Rxf8+ Kxf8 30 Qf7# so black has one move to find an answer... 28 Rxf7 ...
28 ... Rxf7 29 Qxf7+ Kh8 30 Qe8+ mating
28 ... Qd8 29 Rxg7+ Kxg7 30 Nxe6+! Kg8 31 Qg4+! Kf7 (forced) 32 Nxd8+ 32 ... Ke7 33 Qe6+ Kxd8 34 Rc8#
32 ... Ke8 33 Qe6+ Be7 34 Nf7! Nc2/Rc2/Bc2(Rxf7 Rc8#) 35 Nd6+ Kd8 36 Qc8#
32 ... Rxd8 33 e6+
33 ... Ke7 34 Rc7+ Rd7 35 Rxd7+ Kf8 36 Qg7+ Ke8 37 Qf7# 33 ... Kf8 34 e7+ Kxe7 35 Rc7+ Rd7 36 Rxd7+ Kf8 37 Qg7+ Ke8 38 Qf7# 33 ... Ke8 34 Qg8 Ke7 35 Rc7+ Kd6 36 Qxd8+ Kxe6 37 Qe7+ Kf5 38 Qe5+ Kg6 39 Rg7+ Kh6 40 Qg5# 33 ... Kf6 34 Bxb4 Rxb4 35 Qxh4+ winning the rook...
:-) |
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| Jul-26-09 |
| gofer: <OBIT> just read your earlier post, sorry about the duplicate and inferior analysis, you are right! After 32 Nxd8+ Rxd8, if I played 33 Bxb4 Rxb4 instead of 33 e6+, then 34 Rc7+ gives mate as you say and is definitely more correct! :-) |
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| Jul-26-09 |
| OBIT: In your analysis, after 32. Nxd8+, I'm just playing 32...Rxd8. Then if 33. Rc7+, Black has 33...Be7 - that's the reason to get rid of this bishop earlier. (There may still be a win here - I haven't looked at this position too carefully - but an earlier bishop exchange seems to simplify matters.) * * * * *
Ah, I see you beat me to the response! :) |
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| Jul-26-09 |
| BOSTER: Hello,everybody!
Chessgames.com Stuff thanks for creating this wonderful site , for great opportunity to gain deeper insight into chess.
I hope to catch here our thoughts how we find out the puzzle's solution.
About today's puzzle.
Most black forces are on Queen's side , they can not reach very fast own "fortress", which the pawn's structure is destroyed.
First idea is to attack h7 square, which starts an attack against the abandoned black King.
24. Bd3 if Rxd2 or Bxd2
25. Bh7+ Kxh7
26. Qh5+ Kg8
27. Ng5 and white wins.
I did not count all variations with g6 or other defense, but it is obvious that all white pieces,including Rc1 can take part in the battle against unprotected black King. |
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| Jul-27-09 |
| TheBish: Shirov vs Korchnoi, 2004 White to play (24.?) "Insane"
With all but one of Black's pieces on the kingside, the only candidate move I came up with was one that threatened a quick mate. 24. Bd3!! ignores the attack on the d2 bishop, since 24...Rxd2 25. Bh7+ (decoy to gain a tempo) Kxh7 (or 25...Kh8 26. Qh5 Rc8 27. Bg6+ Kg8 28. Qh7+ Kf8 29. Rxf7+ Ke8 30. Qg8+ Bf8 31. Qxf8#) 26. Qh5+ Kg8 27. Ng5 Rc8 28. Qxf7+ Kh8 29. Qh5+ Kg8 30. Qh7 mate. Black's best defense is either 24...g6 or 24...f5, but White has a strong attack in either case. A) 24...g6 25. Qg6 Be8 (Black can't stand 25...Rxd2 26. Bxg6 fxg6 27. Qxg6+ Kh8 28. Ng5 and mate follows shortly) 26. Bxb4 and now: A1) 26...Qxb4 27. Rf6 Kg7 (or 27...Qe7 28. Rcf1 followed by 29. Bxg6) 28. Rc7! threatening 29. Qxg6+, and if 28...Kg8 30. Bxg6 fxg6 31. Rxg6+ mates. A2) 26...Rxb4 27. Rc8!, with the threat of 28. Rxe8 Rxe8 29. Bxg6, breaking through. If 27...Rb1+ 28. Ng1! Qb3 29. Bxg6 fxg6 30. Rxe8 Rxf6 31. exf6+ Kxf6 32. Rxe6+ mates quickly. B) 24...f5 25. exf6 opens more lines to the king, e.g. 25...Rxd2 26. Qg4 Rf7 27. Bg6! and now: B1) 27...Rxf6 28. Rxf6 gxf6 29. Qh5 Kf8 30. Qh7 Be8 31. Qh8+ Ke7 32. Qxe8+ Kd6 33. Rc8 Rd1+ 34. Ng1 Qb5 35. Qf8+ Kd7 36. Qd8 mate. B2) 27...gxf6 28. Bxf7+ Kxf7 29. Rxf6+! Kxf6 30. Rf1+ Ke8 31. Qg8+ Ke7 32. Qf8 mate. B3) 27...Bf8 28. Qh5 and quick mate to follow. |
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| Jul-28-09 |
| openingspecialist: <CG.com> my fritz10 database says this game finished a couple of moves later than shown in the game. It says the game continued:
25. ... Kg7 26. Bxb4 Qxb4 27. Nf4 1-0 |
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Later Kibitzing > |
