chessgames.com
Members · Prefs · Laboratory · Collections · Openings · Endgames · Sacrifices · History · Search Kibitzing · Kibitzer's Café · Chessforums · Tournament Index · Players · Kibitzing

Eduard Nemeth vs Fritz (Computer)
Stufe=Blitz:5'. (2000), ?
Kadas Opening: General (A00)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

find similar games 5 more E Nemeth/Fritz games
sac: 13.Bd5 PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

TIP: If you missed a Game of the Day, you can review the last year of games at our Game of the Day Archive.

PGN Viewer:  What is this?
For help with this chess viewer, please see the Olga Chess Viewer Quickstart Guide.
PREMIUM MEMBERS CAN REQUEST COMPUTER ANALYSIS [more info]

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Nov-03-06  2021: <Whatthefat> Whatever wikipedia said is wrong
Nov-03-06  whatthefat: <Akavall>
1.Nf3 g5 2.Nxg5 e5 3.d4 Be7
and now
4.Nf3
Not white's only move, but probably best. Venturing the knight forward can allow black a modicum of play. 4...e4
The only sensible move, and in the spirit of the opening. After the alternative 4...exd4 5.Nxd4 white has no weaknesses, while black is just down a clear pawn with a damaged pawn structure. Fritz 8 assesses the position as +1.37 at 14 ply.

5.Nfd2!
Better than 5.Ne5 when the knight can become a target. Black now has 3 options: 1) 5...f5, 2) 5...d5, 3) 5...Nf6.

1) 5...f5 6.c4 (6.Nb3 and 6.d5!? are also worth considering) Nf6 7.e3 Rg8 8.b3!? and white has a very solid structure, with the positional threat of Ba3. Black can play for ...f4, but his is just as exposed as white's. Play might continue 8...d5 9.Ba3 Nc6 10.Bxe7 Nxe7 11.Nc3, which Fritz assesses as +0.96 at 18 ply. This seems to be black's best option, but white is not without possible improvements.

2) 5...d5 6.c4 c6 (6...Nf6 7.cxd5 Qxd5 8.e3 Nc6 9.Nc3 Qf5 10.a3! and black's threats are going nowhere. Fritz assessses the position as +1.46 at 14 ply. White will uncoil with b4 and a kingside fianchetto, e.g., 10...Be6 11.g3 0-0-0 12.Bg2) 7.Nc3 Nf6 8.e3 and again white's position is perfectly sound enough to deal with any aggressive intentions of black. White even has the possibility of the pawn break f2-f3(f4) while black's f-pawn is presently impeded. Fritz assesses this position as +1.43 at 15 ply.

3) 5...Nf6 6.c4 and white has the simple plan of e3 and Nc3 with a clear advantage, as in 2) above. Fritz assesses this position as +1.27 at 14 ply. Against 6...d5 white should answer 7.cxd5 Qxd5 8.e3 with 9.Nc3 to follow.

Nov-06-06  Akavall: <whatthefat> What line does your Fritz give after:

1.Nf3 g5 2.Nxg5 e5 3.d4 Be7 4.Nf3 e4 5.Nfd2 d5 6.c4 c6 7.Nc3 Nf6 8.e3 Rg8

My Fritz 8, gives it a +0.75 for 9. f3 and 9. Qb3, 9. Qa4 and 9. a3 come close. I got this at 14 ply.

But on the intuitive level it looks like black has some compensation for the pawn here.


click for larger view

Nov-06-06  2021: <Akavall> <whatthefat> Why are you talking about 1.e4 g5 2.Nxg5 when it's just a horrible opening? If you want talk about this opening, go to another page e.g. Uncommon opening (A00)
Nov-06-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  JointheArmy: 2021
Member since Apr-04-06

Akavall
Member since Jan-08-04

whatthefat
Member since Feb-06-05

JointheArmy
Member since Dec-04-04

They can do what they want <2021>.

Nov-06-06  2021: <JointheArmy> They can, but why here?
Nov-09-06  whatthefat: <2021>
The topic naturally evolved here, so I see no reason not to finish the discussion.

<Akavall: What line does your Fritz give after:

1.Nf3 g5 2.Nxg5 e5 3.d4 Be7 4.Nf3 e4 5.Nfd2 d5 6.c4 c6 7.Nc3 Nf6 8.e3 Rg8

My Fritz 8, gives it a +0.75 for 9. f3 and 9. Qb3, 9. Qa4 and 9. a3 come close. I got this at 14 ply.

But on the intuitive level it looks like black has some compensation for the pawn here.>

Superficially, black is compensated by his spatial advantage, and active rook. However, when it comes down to the specifics of the position, I think there are a number of factors working against black:

1. White has the f2-f3 break (which is the line preferred by the computer immediately), whereas black's f-pawn is blocked. If black could begin advancing his f-pawn immediately, I'd agree that he has compensation, but as it is, black can't make much progress.

2. Black's weak kingside pawn structure in addition to the material deficit will lead to lost endings.

3. White's pieces, while presently undeveloped, are ready to uncoil nicely, using cxd5 to clarify the centre. By contrast, black's queenside knight and rook will not easily enter the game.

My Fritz 8 (using 192Mb hashtables, and otherwise default settings) showing top 5 moves, evaluates the position at 14 ply as:

1. (1.41) 9.f3 exf3 10.Qxf3 Bg4 11.Qf2 Be6
2. (1.25) 9.a3 Bf5 10.f3 Nbd7 11.cxd5 cxd5
3. (1.20) 9.Qb3 a6 10.f3 exf3 11.Nxf3 b5
4. (1.18) 9.Qa4 a6 10.f3 exf3 11.Nxf3 Bf5
5. (1.17) 9.cxd5 cxd5 10.f3 exf3 11.Qxf3 Bg4

At 16 ply, it gives:

1. (1.38) 9.f3 exf3 10.Qxf3 Bg4 11.Qf2 Be6
2. (1.24) 9.Qb3 a6 10.g3 b5 11.cxd5 cxd5
2. (1.20) 9.a3 Bg4 10.Qb3 Qd7 11.cxd5 cxd5
4. (1.20) 9.Qa4 a6 10.Nxd5 Nxd5 11.cxd5 Qxd5
5. (1.13) 9.cxd5 cxd5 10.f3 exf3 11.Nxf3 Nc6

Following the "main line" 9.f3 exf3 10.Qxf3 Bg4 11.Qf2 (11.Qf4 is also worthy of consideration), we reach this position, with white threatening to consolidate before black can bring anything to a head:


click for larger view

At 17 ply, Fritz assesses this position as:

1. (1.18) 11...Be6 12.cxd5 cxd5 13.Bd3 Nc6 14.Nf3
2. (1.31) 11...Qb6 12.Bd3 Be6 13.b3 Na6 14.a3
3. (1.33) 11...Qd7 12.Bd3 Na6 13.a3 0-0-0 14.cxd5

Nov-11-06  2021: <whatthefat> Crafty says that 1.g4 is the worst first move.
Nov-11-06  2021: <whatthefat> <Akavall> My crafty gives 1.Nf3 g5 2.Nxg5 e5 3.d4 Be7 4.Nf3 e4 As +1.02 for white. Strangely, it says that after 3... Be7 4.Nh3 exd4 as +1.27 for white
Nov-11-06  whatthefat: <2021>
4.Nh3 is also very playable for white. In a lot of lines, black has nothing better than to surrender the bishop pair with ...Bxh3. But then black's intiative is lost, and white can also contest the g-file.
Nov-11-06  2021: <whatthefat> but after 4.Nh3 Bxh3 5.gxh3, white has very weak doubled (and isolated) pawns and will have more pawn islands.
Nov-11-06  whatthefat: <2021>
4...Bxh3 isn't possible in that position. And in any case, white's bishop pair in an open position will generally compensate for such a weakness. Nonetheless, I think 4.Nf3 promises white a more solid advantage. I think the fact that white has the luxury of multiple advantageous plans speaks a lot about the position.
Nov-11-06  Akavall: <whatthefat> My Fritz 8 gives the same moves as yours but the readings are different (about .30 less advantage for white), probably has something to do with the settings.

1.Nf3 g5 2.Nxg5 e5 3.d4 Be7 4.Nf3 e4 5.Nfd2 d5 6.c4 c6 7.Nc3 Nf6 8.e3 Rg8 9.f3 exf3 10.Qxf3 Bg4 11.Qf2 Be6


click for larger view

In this position, I think black has some compensation.

Black pieces are better developed. Actually, I don't see (when playing around with Fritz) how white can finish development. Where will white King go, castling long?I don't see how to achieve it. Casting short and staying in the center seems dangerous.

After the main-line your Fritz gives:11...Be6 12.cxd5 cxd5 13.Bd3 Nc6 14.Nf3


click for larger view

How about 14...Qd7 for black here. If you don't mind lets continue with this line for a little bit and see what we come up with.

Nov-12-06  2021: <whatthefat> When I said Bxh3, I didn't mean on that move, but some time later.
Nov-14-06  2021: <Akavall> I think the first position in your last kibitz after 1.Nf3 g5 2.Nxg5 e5 3.d4 Be7 4.Nf3 e4 5.Nfd2 d5 6.c4 c6 7.Nc3 Nf6 8.e3 Rg8 9.f3 exf3 10.Qxf3 Bg4 11.Qf2 Be6 Black has some compensation for his goog g-rook but I don't think it' enough. I think 12.Nf3! would be a good move because 12... dxc4 13.Ne5 and the only way to protect the pawn is with 13... b5 but thats just too weakening.
Nov-16-06  Akavall: <2021>< I think the first position in your last kibitz after 1.Nf3 g5 2.Nxg5 e5 3.d4 Be7 4.Nf3 e4 5.Nfd2 d5 6.c4 c6 7.Nc3 Nf6 8.e3 Rg8 9.f3 exf3 10.Qxf3 Bg4 11.Qf2 Be6 Black has some compensation for his goog g-rook but I don't think it' enough.>

I agree with that.

<I think 12.Nf3! would be a good move because 12... dxc4 13.Ne5 and the only way to protect the pawn is with 13... b5 but thats just too weakening.>


click for larger view

I think black is doing fine here. I don't see how white can attack black pawns on the queen's side. The position is very complex, it reminds me of semi-slav. I would probably even prefer to play black in this position, but this of course has nothing to do with the objective evaluation of the position.

Fritz gives it +0.25.

Nov-17-06  2021: <Akavall> <I think black is doing fine here> Not really. The b8-knight is hard to develop. Black has a kind of bad light squared bishop but black is not so bad.
Nov-17-06  Akavall: Black's plan here is pretty clear: They play b4, then Bd5, if bishops exchange Qd5 and then Nbd7. That's what I like about their position, they have a pretty clear plan.
Nov-17-06  2021: <Akavall> At this point I can see 12.Nf3 is not good.
Nov-17-06  2021: <Akavall> <whatthefat> Got to kibitzing cafe and see my puzzles please.
Aug-27-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: It appears that Fritz managed to turn a solid advantage into a solid disadvantage on its 15th move:


click for larger view

Here, Fritz (black) uncorked the dubious <15...f5??>.

How Fritz came up with this I don't understand. It permits 16. g6!, and now the g-pawn totally cramps black's king, the g5 square is vacated for the knight to join the attack, which in turn creates a Q+R battery on the h-file. 15...f5 is just terrible, and black's game quickly turned to mud afterwards.

Black would have been well off with the simple 15...g6!. This buys time (forcing white to protect his queen, e.g. 16. Qh6) and it blocks the g5 pawn which white dearly wishes to evacuate for his knight.

After 16. Qh6, black now has time for 16...f6 with room to escape attack.

If 17. Qxg6+ then 17...Qg7 18. Qxg6+ Kxg7 19. Rxd5 and black is simply up a piece.

If 17. gxf5, then 17...N7xf6!, and black will soon be up two pieces.

Feb-02-09  WhiteRook48: an extra rook is obviously a difference
Feb-11-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  MichaelJHuman: What I found out was that my computer also needs a lot of time to find 15... g6

It does not find it until depth 11 and many minutes have passed.

Before that point, the computer evaluates white as wanting to take the Knight and seems to prefer f5 if white does take the knight.

After looking down to depth 11, the computer decides white is better off playing 16. g6, and in that case is better blocking the move by playing 15. g6.

Feb-11-09  WhiteRook48: 1. h4 is weird
Feb-15-09  WhiteRook48: after 30...f5 position looks cool
search thread:   
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
NOTE: You need to pick a username and password to post a reply. Getting your account takes less than a minute, is totally anonymous, and 100% free—plus, it entitles you to features otherwise unavailable. Pick your username now and join the chessgames community!
If you already have an account, you should login now.
Please observe our posting guidelines:
  1. No obscene, racist, sexist, profane, raunchy, or disgusting language.
  2. No spamming, advertising, duplicate or nonsense posts.
  3. No malicious personal attacks, including cyber stalking, systematic antagonism, or gratuitous name-calling of any member Iincludinfgall Admin and Owners or any of their family, friends, associates, or business interests. If you think someone is an idiot, then provide evidence that their reasoning is invalid and/or idiotic, instead of just calling them an idiot. It's a subtle but important distinction, even in political discussions.
  4. Nothing in violation of United States law.
  5. No malicious posting of or linking to personal, private, and/or negative information (aka "doxing" or "doxxing") about any member, (including all Admin and Owners) or any of their family, friends, associates, or business interests. This includes all media: text, images, video, audio, or otherwise. Such actions will result in severe sanctions for any violators.
  6. NO TROLLING. Admin and Owners know it when they see it, and sanctions for any trolls will be significant.
  7. Any off-topic posts which distract from the primary topic of discussion are subject to removal.
  8. The use of "sock puppet" accounts to circumvent disciplinary action taken by Moderators is expressly prohibited.
  9. The use of "sock puppet" accounts in an attempt to undermine any side of a debate—or to create a false impression of consensus or support—is prohibited.
  10. All decisions with respect to deleting posts, and any subsequent discipline, are final, and occur at the sole discretion of the Moderators, Admin, and Owners.
  11. Please try to maintain a semblance of civility at all times.
Blow the Whistle See something that violates our rules? Blow the whistle and inform a Moderator.

NOTE: Keep all discussion on the topic of this page. This forum is for this specific game and nothing else. If you want to discuss chess in general, or this site, visit the Kibitzer's Café.

Messages posted by Chessgames members do not necessarily represent the views of Chessgames.com, its employees, or sponsors. All Moderator actions taken are at the sole discretion of the Admin and Owners—who will strive to act fairly and consistently at all times.
Spot an error? Please submit a correction slip and help us eliminate database mistakes!
This game is type: BLITZ (Disagree? Please submit a correction slip.)

Featured in the Following Game Collections[what is this?]
Computer stinker 15...f5 loses (granted, in a blitz game)
from Games analyzed by YouRang by YouRang
senakash's favorite games part 2
by senakash
Kadas Opening 1.h4?! (A00) 1-0 Fritz played like a wood pusher
from Aooh!? Fredthebear has Uncommon Openings?! by fredthebear
Uncommon Openings
by Sudgon
Kadas Opening 1.h4?! (A00) 1-0 Fritz played like a wood pusher
from Comp Chomps, Chumps & Challenges CageFredthebear by fredthebear
Uncommon Openings
by Morphischer
Silicon, Thy name is Fool!
from sushijunkie's favorite games by sushijunkie
dlawtho's favorite games
by dlawtho
Really Messed Up Games
by hidude
Anti-computer (the game is blitz, however)
from Unorthodox Play by Judah


home | about | login | logout | F.A.Q. | your profile | preferences | Premium Membership | Kibitzer's Café | Biographer's Bistro | new kibitzing | chessforums | Tournament Index | Player Directory | Notable Games | World Chess Championships | Opening Explorer | Guess the Move | Game Collections | ChessBookie Game | Chessgames Challenge | Store | privacy notice | contact us
Copyright 2001-2019, Chessgames Services LLC