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|Dec-01-09|| ||aidin299: zanshin !
I wonder to know what is your chess programme ? fritz 12 ,deep fritz or rybeka..?! which version ? in every software i've tested this and all show >-6.00 eval for Rxf3 in higher depthes.
are you saying that engines other than fritz may miss some tactics somewhere in their calculation ?! and about your statement about "best move " , I was watching a nice interview with
kasparof saying that ;"always there's only and only one best move for any given position...."
|Dec-01-09|| ||patzer2: White's last chance for equality appears to have been lost with 30. Qg3? Bb3! . Instead. 30. Ng5+ Kg8 31. Qe3! holds with a nice initiative and a clever threat (diagram below)|
click for larger view
(if now 31...Nxa4??, then 32. Ne4! ).
A few moves later, in the actual game continuation, instead of 32. Re1?? White could have avoided an immediate lost position and might have had practical drawing chances with 32. Rf1 .
|Dec-01-09|| ||zanshin: <aidin299: zanshin !
I wonder to know what is your chess programme ? fritz 12 ,deep fritz or rybeka..?! which version >
I use Rybka 3 (Deep version; quad core computer)
|Dec-01-09|| ||Eduardo Leon: The obvious solution is 32...xe1+ 33.xe1 d2, but there's something more ambitious and decisive:|
32...xf3! 33.xe8 xg3
If white takes the rook right now, he will be temporarily an exchange up, but he will have to give up his rook for the powerful d pawn: 34.fxg3 d2 35.d8 d1=.
The white king escapes from the mating net, and white will still have to give up his rook for the d pawn.
If 35.fxg3 d2! 36.d8 d1=+.
35...d2! 36.xd2 d3
Black has less material advantage than in the original line (32...xe1+), but has exchanged more pieces and can concentrate on grabbing the weak white pawn in the queenside.
|Dec-01-09|| ||Jupp53: So looking through all the responses and analysis here the best solution is
A third simple solution in time trouble would be
c)1... d7 2.Rxe8 d8Q+ 3.Re1 Rxf3 4.Rxd1 Rxg3 5.Rd8 Rd3 6.Rb8 Kg7 and black is a piece up.
Not a solution for a given problem actually.
|Dec-01-09|| ||mworld: bizarre, I saw Rxf3 and didn't even get a chance to evaluate Qxe1+ before I made up my mind.|
|Dec-01-09|| ||MiCrooks: I'm in the camp that went with Rxf3. It clearly wins, and especially given that this WAS a blitz game if you find a winning line you don't normally take any time looking for another "clearer" win.|
|Dec-01-09|| ||MiCrooks: Interestingly, I dumped into the computer and it jumped to about +4.5 for the game move versus about +2 for Rxf3, but then as soon as you PLAY the move and it gets a little deeper in the tree it pops up to +5.5 whereas going deeping into the Qxe1 line gives the same result. So it looks like Rxf3 was objectively the "better" move.|
Realistically either one is a crush so point to either.
|Dec-01-09|| ||Patriot: <<aidin299> patriot ! are you saying that engines other than fritz may miss some tactics somewhere in their calculation ?! and about your statement about "best move " , I was watching a nice interview with kasparof saying that ;"always there's only and only one best move for any given position....">|
Not at all! I was pointing out that different engines don't all agree. I have seen many times where Fritz gives move A as best whereas Rybka gives move B as best.
Plus my point was that what Fritz deems best isn't always the best move for a human to play. Fritz or Rybka isn't going to miss a tactic where a human player might! If I have a choice between a move that without question is winning and a move that 'might' be winning IF I've calculated everything correctly...then I'm always going to choose the move that clearly wins.
Kramnik was once asked a question as to why he didn't play the best move? He replied that his move was winning and so he didn't look further. He didn't care if there was a better move. He chose the move that was clearly winning.
In my opinion it's just practical to play the winning move that is clear than to play a move that may be winning but looks more complex. Even though to a computer the complex move may be 'best'.
On that note whenever you are winning, your opponent is the one who wants to complicate the position so as to give you a chance to miscalculate. Conversely, you should be trying to keep the position as simple as possible when you are winning.
So in my opinion, Qxe1 is best. On Qxe1+ Nxe1 d2 and black is winning--simple as that. The pawn cannot be stopped and white has no counterplay. But look at other posts and how much calculation went into Rxf3! Why choose a move that is more complicated?
However, if you chose Rxf3 then I think you still deserve a full point on solving the puzzle because it DOES work.
|Dec-01-09|| ||Marmot PFL: Seems there are 2 equivalent ways to win, Qxe1+ (game) and Rxf3 (which I and others picked) which reduces the position somewhat as a puzzle. Of course the idea is the same - get the d pawn home.|
|Dec-01-09|| ||WhiteRook48: I thought it was Rxf3|
|Dec-01-09|| ||David2009: Tuesday's puzzle Ehlvest vs T Gelashvili, 2002 Black 32...?|
32...Qxe1+ 33 Nxe1 d2 and the Pawn promotes on either e1 or d1. White has no counter-attack so the
"sacrifice" is quite safe. This tactic comes up from time to time so is worth remembering.
Time to check how the game went and read fellow-kibitzer's comments
====== As expected.
|Dec-01-09|| ||BOSTER: <zanshin> < I went with Rxf3-did I get wrong?>.
Inspite of computer evaluation I'd say YES.
AS a chessplayer, who is interested in martial arts, you have to know how is important to read your opponent's intentions.
Surely,that white saw the move Rxf3 and expecting this move. This is why you don't have to play this move, you have to find something to surprise him-this is the queen sacr. Qxe1 and the spectacular advance d2.
Qxe1 is the simplest, therefore the scientific way to force the win, and this ending is very artistic.
|Dec-01-09|| ||turbo231: I went with Qxr,RxN was too complicated. <zanshin> Are you using 64 bits? Do you ever match up with Rybka2.3.2 32bits, if so how much better is deep Rybka as in winning %?|
|Dec-01-09|| ||ComboKal: <turbo231> <I went with QxR, RxN was too complicated.>|
Of all the posts, bickering back and forth over which is the correct answer, I like yours the best. Well said!
<Occam's razor> - (in basic terms) The simplest model tends to be the correct one.
Then there's that other saying - "There's more than one way to skin a cat."
The bottom line is that RxN is not wrong, it's just that QxR is better.
|Dec-01-09|| ||turbo231: <ComboKal> < The bottom line is that RxN is not wrong, it's just that QxR is better.> You said it better than me!|
|Dec-01-09|| ||albertsky67: ehlvest vs gelashvili
32..Rf3 does not work 33Re8,Rg3 34Rd8..
pawn cannot be pushed and the white rook has no where to go..
|Dec-01-09|| ||GaeBulg: I'm thinking 32...Qxe1+ 33. Nxe1 d2!
and the pawn can not be stopped from queening.
|Dec-01-09|| ||GaeBulg: I did look at Rxf3 first but found that to be more complicated than Qxe1+.|
Rybka 2.2, confusingly, finds Qxe1+ and suggests that; however, after Qxe1+ Rybka gives the eval at -4.5 whereas after Rxf3 Rybka gives the eval at -5 so it seems to actually favor Rxf3.
OTB I would definitely have played Qxe1+ since there are far fewer defenses to consider. Rxf3 may be objectively good with perfect or close to perfect play, but it's much easier to set yourself up for a trap.
|Dec-01-09|| ||TheaN: Tuesday 2 December 2009
Taken: 0:49;012 (but some more after I quit, around par I think)
Material: Black up,
Candidates: Rxf3, <[Qxe1†]>
It's quite easy to spot that in this unbalanced position, Black doesn't just want to move his Queen. He's going to sac her here and now. There are two abundant ways, and at first I wanted to play Rxf3. Although a nice take-out-the-defender move, Qxe1† is more forcing:
<32....Qxe1† 33.Nxe1 d2 > now, with the White Rook off the board, White cannot counterattack at all. Black promotes with either d1=Q or dxe1=Q†. This is unavoidable, leading to a Rook up for Black.
Now what is the major problem with Rxf3? I was looking at 32....Rxf3?! 33.Rxd8 Rxg3 34.fxg3! d2 and now 35.Bf6!! d1=Q† 36.Kh2 with mate next move. I guess that refutes Rxf3... time to check.
|Dec-01-09|| ||TheaN: 2/2
Oh, I missed the very simple g5 defense. Nonetheless, my solution is correct and I was also correct in evaluating Rxf3?! as a rather dubious approach.
|Dec-01-09|| ||zanshin: <turbo231: <zanshin> Are you using 64 bits? >|
No <turbo231> I only have 32-bit OS computers .. so cannot answer the rest of your question.
|Dec-01-09|| ||TheBish: Ehlvest vs T Gelashvili, 2002|
Black to play (32...?) "Easy"
32...Qxe1+! 33. Nxe1 d2 and Black will queen (with check) after the knight moves, netting a rook.
|Dec-01-09|| ||SufferingBruin: 1000 rating, trying to get better.
I have seen greater contrasts in pictures but not many.
Jaan Ehlvest looks for the all the world like a mid-level manager at the Christmas Party of a company that sells brand-X. This is not a man who has driven back both Karpov and Ivanchuk; this is a man who wants to tell you why brand-X is beneficial to your wife, your life and your home. Tanned, a little more weight than his prime and wearing a look that says, "it's a life, and I'm satisfied," he's a year older than me, has probably worked a few jobs I would find familiar, and we would have much to discuss.
Tamaz Gelashvili looks looks for all the world like a man who took the wrong meds or just got done visiting his fifth underground Russian opium den. He may or may not have slugged somebody and he may or may not slug you--depends on his particular mood. Somebody shouted, "Hey, Tamaz!," and he looked up to see a flash of light, not thinking the image would be forever immortalized on a heavily visited chess website. I'm not sure what to make of the red cord around his neck--ID badge at tournament? His shirt is rumpled, he is pasty-faced, his visage curious mixture of bored indifference contrasted with eyes that look ready to pounce. One sentence is devoted to his bio on CG. I'm not sure if we'd have much to talk about.
I'm pretty sure Ehlvest was posing at a Christmas party. I'm pretty sure Gelashvili was at a chess tournament. I'm also sure I'm having way too much fun writing about these photos.
I love this game.
|Dec-01-09|| ||openingspecialist: Fritz12: 24Ply
(-7.66) 32. ... Qxd1 33. Nxe1 d2 34. Nf3 d1Q+ 35. Kh2 Ne4 36. Qg4 Nd2 37. Nxd2 Qxd2 ....
(-7.63) 32. ... Rxf3 33. Rxe8 Rxg3 34. Bxg3 d2 35. Rd8 Bd5 36. c4 d1Q+ 37. Kh2 Qd4 ....
For anyone who is up an extra 3 hundredths of a pawn on me, congratulations.
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