< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Aug-28-08|| ||dwavechess: I guess Philidor would love this game. Rybka 2.3.2 concur with Winawer in 18/22 moves.|
|Sep-02-08|| ||GrahamClayton: Source: CN 684 Edward Winter, "Chess Explorations", Cadogan 1996|
|Sep-02-08|| ||ughaibu: Here's Winawer's immortal pawn hilarity game: Flamberg vs Winawer, 1900|
|Sep-15-08|| ||dwavechess: 17/22, little less using R3 at minutes per move for Winawer.|
|Mar-28-09|| ||Hugh the Drover: Kobe Bryant in the latest issue of Time Magazine gives basketball tips, and describes how to drive: "Aim to step in front of the defender's foot. [He'll move back, giving you more room.] It's like chess."|
How does such a maneuver resemble chess? A pawn thrust, or the thrust of a major piece? To block, to position, or be a battering ram? To be sure, elements of football, basketball and baseball resemble and have equivalent situations in chess.
So I refer to a game which sees a pawn storm by Black. Does it resemble Kobe's play? Are there other situations in chess or sports which resemble the other? For example, in baseball with a fly ball and runner on third (with less than two outs), the runner is "pinned", since he must "tag up" before running. In football, the pawns easily resemble offensive and defensive linemen in football, moreso when they meet an opposing pawn or piece head-on and just stay there.
|Mar-28-09|| ||Jim Bartle: There are a lot of silly chess references in discussions of other topics. The term "endgame" seems to be used indiscriminately. Even the sainted New Yorker once referred to "a temporary checkmate" concerning a diplomatic situation.|
|Mar-28-09|| ||tamar: Michael Jordan used to drive, get cut off by the double-team and then float back out while dribbling.|
Then there was the moment when the double team man suddenly decided he had to get back to his own man, and Michael would sprint past him as he retreated, almost as if he created a vacuum.
I don't know what the equivalence in chess would be, but maybe a Pillsbury game, where the attack does not work until the defenders are called away to quell a skirmish on the opposite side, and there is an opening when they leave. Another Nuremburg game Pillsbury vs Lasker, 1896
|Mar-28-09|| ||Jim Bartle: "Aim to step in front of the defender's foot. [He'll move back, giving you more room.] It's like chess."|
I'll bet Dennis Rodman, Jerry Sloan, Michael Cooper, KC Jones, Oscar Robertson, etc. never backed off as Kobe says.
|Mar-28-09|| ||tamar: And then there was Bill Laimbeer's philosophy that worked too:|
Aim to step on the opponents foot.
|Mar-28-09|| ||Jim Bartle: Slander! Laimbeer never committed a foul in his NBA career. (According to him.)|
|Mar-28-09|| ||Jim Bartle: Correction: That was written, not spoken. Libel!|
|Mar-28-09|| ||tamar: Actually Piston basketball bears a good resemblance to how Petrosian played chess.|
He is always nudging the opponent while he tries to attack, getting him slightly off balance, so that the attack almost works, but Petrosian's more nimble forces pick off the attackers as they drive toward his King.
|Mar-28-09|| ||Jim Bartle: Yes, I remember Rick Mahorn "nudging" many players, leaving them "slightly off balance" (lying on the floor).|
In the second NBA game I ever attended, Piston center Bob Ferry starting pulling down Wilt's shorts while guarding him. Wilt shot out an elbow and Ferry slid about twenty feet across the floor.
|Mar-28-09|| ||tamar: You're probably right. Mahorn was dirtier than Laimbeer, who actually had a scientific method to getting around the rules.|
For example, he used to do a kind of baby step shuffle when guarding a player, knowing that if he moved a player off his spot with 10 quick steps into his body, each tiny foul would not be great enough to get called.
Many players have now adopted this technique.
|Mar-28-09|| ||Jim Bartle: Mahorn was really tough, the type of player almost every winning team needs. The Charles Oakley/Buck Williams model.|
One of the strengths of those Pistons was that they had four first-rate forwards, so they could go all out without worrying about fouls. Mahorn or Aguirre fouls out? No problem, here comes Rodman or Salley. Nice luxury to have.
|Mar-28-09|| ||tamar: So basically this game is Adolf Albin taking ill advised jump shots without getting his teammates involved, thereby creating long rebounds, which allows the opposing center to release and set up shop on f2, and then the guards run circles around the lone defender.|
If at the end Albin defends against the threat of Bxg2+ with 23 gxh3 the Queen dunks over him with 23...Qxf3+ 24 Kg1 Qf2+ 25 Kh1 Nf3 26 Qg2 Qe1+ and mate next.
|Mar-29-09|| ||Hugh the Drover: I'll confess. I thought Kobe was talking about a pawn maneuver when he drives to the hoop, so I looked up a game with decisive pawns. And Chernev's Fireside Book of Chess has this game. The pawns' heavy control of the center, with bit players like a queen and bishop (indeed some are all-stars), resembles Bill Russell and the solid inside dominance he provided (at either end of the court).|
The Black Queen's back-rank mate potential is just a Sam Jones or John Havlicek jumper waiting to happen, from a pass off an offensive rebound by Russell.
|Mar-29-09|| ||Hugh the Drover: The white Queen's useless moves tend to show a ballhog, with the Knight able to get some touches, but not the other players. Bob McAdoo or Adrian Dantley averaging 30 per game?|
|Mar-29-09|| ||Jim Bartle: McAdoo and Dantley? Excellent examples of ballhogs. Detroit didn't win until they traded Dantley for Aguirre. He was hopeless on defense.|
McAdoo became a better team player later in his career, on the Lakers I think, when he was no longer the main guy.
|Mar-29-09|| ||Hugh the Drover: Other references in sports to chess, not relatable to direct move-by-move on-board play (like endgame, a slightly broader term), are when a football coach is seen as in a chessgame. He must call plays, substitute players, handle both side's offense, defense and special teams (not unlike handling the opening, strategy, tactics, et al. which are similar though not identical phases), so this is a valid equating.|
A close game in the fourth quarter may prompt the TV commentator to say that this is a real chess match. (Of course, I'm talking North American football, not soccer.) Here, we see no small compliment to chess.
|Mar-29-09|| ||keypusher: Kingpin used to have a very funny column with regular items IACGOT ("It's A Chess Game Out There" ) and LASTBUR ("League Against Setting the Board Up Rong"). They found chess metaphors in the most unlikely places. |
Speaking of LASTBUR, today's New York Times had a profile of the two young entrepreneurs who gave Facebook to the world. There was a picture of the two playing chess on a proper set with an electronic chess clock. If anything, the set was a little too nice for speed chess, unless you're a GODDAM 25-YEAR OLD BILLIONAIRE I suppose.
But...Black's clock was running, even though White was in check (to a hanging bishop no less). So apparently creating a realistic chess game for photographic purposes remains impossible in the 21st century.
|Mar-29-09|| ||tamar: Of all players, Bill Russell approached basketball like a chess game.|
He even tried to keep the ball in play on blocks, utilizing Steinitz' dictum of using the minimum force necessary for defence, and he funnelled the ball to a teammate for an immediate counter-attack.
Mostly though in sports commentary, the reference to chess just means thinking ahead and is so vague as to be useless.
|Mar-29-09|| ||A.G. Argent: Yeah,<JB> A.D. and McAdoo were a bit stingy with the ball but I loved watching the both of 'em. Especially McAdoo and his silky 18' baseline jump shot. La Marcus Aldridge these days kinda reminds me of him.|
|Mar-30-09|| ||Hugh the Drover: One fine comment holds that certain players (Rodman, Michael Cooper) would not back off on Kobe under his tip to, when driving, aim to step at the defender's feet. But with a little head fake, Kobe could just flank and go another of several ways. (Another comment asks whether Michael Jordan's fakes, causing wind tunnel effects or currents --- like Superman flying too fast too low through skyscrapers, upturned cars et al --- can be found on the chessboard. It can but needs discovering.)|
For like the Queen or Knight in chess, in basketball a player with the ball in an open court has roughly eight directions to move (the "vectors" of a Knight or a Queen). A hook shot or fade away jumper would be moving backwards; one can drive left, right or straight ahead, even "through" a defender (and then pass or shoot). Doing nothing, or a fake, may resemble a waiting move in chess.
So a staunch defense on Kobe could lead him to play Bg2 or Bh3, and a defender is left in the dust. A running back in football has similar options, and sometimes runs backwards to outflank the defense, but perhaps does not have as many as eight vectors to travel, since football is so gain-oriented. In basketball and chess, moving backwards is not per se bad, though seems to be in football.
|Oct-09-12|| ||FSR: Albin played at maybe 1400 level in this game.|
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