< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Aug-18-11|| ||MiCrooks: I just wonder about that final position shown above...this game was played back in the days when losing your Queen was akin to losing the game. Material is fairly even here. This looks like the type of position where the Queen will be able to dominate, but I still wonder if some clever defense might still be mounted.|
|Aug-18-11|| ||Domdaniel: Oops. I made a big mistake here - not with the solution, because 20.Rxb5 is easy enough to see - but with the *players*. I thought White was the 20-21st century positional genius Ulf Andersson, not the legendary 19th century tactician with a similar name, Adolf Anderssen.|
Luckily, the scenario works out much the same in both cases, as White is essentially refuting a flawed combination set in motion by Black. Either Adolf or Ulf could find the hole in an opponent's calculations.
Black has given up a piece for several pawns, expecting to regain it with the fork ...b5, emerging at least two pawns ahead. The problem is that Bxb5 will pin his Queen to his King, and the rest is working out the optimal move order. Rxb5 first, Nxd6+ second, and mayhem whether Black moves his King or not.
This type of carnage was natural to Adolf, but is a rarity in Ulf's games - mainly because his opponents were rarely dim enough to try anything on.
|Aug-18-11|| ||chrisowen: Praise Evans Game 4.b4 we are sailing for a quick blow. Blacks come back consists strong pointing e5 but white undermines b5 vanguard nf6 wins the queen it yonder hill again.|
|Aug-18-11|| ||chrisowen: Remain to be seen jug mild bc5 I prefer fishing ba5 damage aha see safe lared great b7 jump jet set I know|
Kasparov vs Anand, 1995
|Aug-18-11|| ||Domdaniel: <chrisowen> You're almost lapsing into English. You might want to check if your obscurity filter is working properly, or to raise the threshold on your ambiguometer. Or maybe you need to renew your poetic license?|
|Aug-18-11|| ||Marmot PFL: <Dd> I didn't think Ulf would play the Evans, though here he plays the Moeller Attack - Ulf Andersson vs M Johansson, 1969|
|Aug-18-11|| ||patzer2: Anderssen's 20. Rxb5!! combines a number of tactics into one neat combination.|
First, it's a defensive combination that breaks the pawn double attack 19. b5, which Anderssen by the way teased his opponent into when he played 19. Rab1!
It also involves the demolition of pawn structure, decoy, deflection clearance, and pinning tactics. Not to mention threats against the exposed King and trapped Queen.
One might argue it also appears to have elements of a discovered attack with check and an in between move tactic, but that might be a slight stretch.
Here's some analysis with Fritz:
<20. Rxb5!!> Welcome into my parlor said the spider to the fly. I expected 19...b5 when I played 19. Rab1!
This move demolishes pawn structure, exposes the King & Queen to attack, and threatens a winning pin.
<20...cxb5 21. Nxd6+!> This clearance move prepares 22. Bxb5 and ends any hope of castling the helpless King to safety.
If 21... Bxd6, then 22. Bxb5 initiates a winning pin, when play might continue 22...Bxa3 23. Bxd7+ Nxd7 24. Rd1 Rd8 25. Qxa3 .
If 21... Qxd6, White initiates a winning attack with 22. Bxb5+ when play might continue 22... Ke7 23. Ng5 Nf4 (23...Kd8 24. Bxd6 Bxd6 25. Qa6 ) 24. Rd1 a6 25. Qc4 axb5 26. Qxc7+ Ke8 27. Qf7+ Kd8 28. Rxd6+ Kc8 29. Rc6+ Kd8 30. Qe7#.
<22. Bxb5 1-0>
Black's exposed King and Queen are helpless against White's mass of aggressively posted pieces. Black resigns in lieu of such possibilities as 22... Qe6 23. Ng5! Qd5 24. Ndf7+ Kc8 25. Ba6+ Kb8 26. Qb4+ Bb6 27. Qd6+ Bc7 28. Rb1+ Qb7 29. Rxb7+ Kc8 30. Qxc7#.
|Aug-18-11|| ||Memethecat: Got the answer up to 21NxD6+ but expexted 21...BxD6 then the BQ being lost to the pin. But if your opponent is gonna sac a R you know something is afoot. i like 20..D5 maybe followed by artificial castling KS. Much easier to sus this stuff out when you know there's an answer and no bloody clock ticking away.|
|Aug-18-11|| ||beenthere240: I am was intrigued by david2009's suggestion of 20....Nf4, which threatens to exchange off the LSB. It has the advantage of making white recalculate, since most of his work would have probably been spent on the ramifications of accepting the rook on b5. The more I look at it though, the less I like it. 21. Rb7 looks pretty powerful.|
|Aug-18-11|| ||BOSTER: <dzechiel> <It took me a minute to work out combo 20.Rxb5>.|
You 'd better spend couple minutes to discover that after 20...o-o white <will be lucky to survive>.
|Aug-18-11|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: In this tactically rich middlegame position, white has a bishop for three pawns, but faces the prospective loss of the knight on c4 to the pawn fork. White can get a pawn back with 20.Bxg6+(??) hg 21.Qc2 bxc4 22.Qxg6+, but 22... Qf7 23.Qxf7+ Kxf7 24.Rb7 Ne8 (defending 25.Bxd6) does not look promising for white. After looking at this, I realized that white can not retreat and need not retreat. As usual, active pieces can be put to good use against a king caught in the middle.|
20.Rxb5! (Candidate #2) knocks out the lead pawn of black's queenside pawn roller, keeps the valuable LSB, and exploits the lineup of Qd7-Ke8:
A) 20... cxb5 21.Nxd6+! (the point) Bxd6 22.Bxb5 Bxa3 23.Bxd7+ Nxd7 24.Qxa3 leaves white with Q for R+N and a won position because the BK can't castle easily and black a-pawn and e-pawn are weak.
A.1) 21... Qxd6 22.Bxb5+ K-moves/Nd7 23.Bxd6 wins.
A.2) 21... Kd8 22.Bxb5 Qe6 (Qc8 24.Nf7 is a cute helpmate) 23.Bc4 Qd7 24.Nf7+ Kc8 (Ke8 25.Bb5 wins) 25.Ba6+ Kb8 26.Rb1+ Bb6 27.Bd6+ wins the Q.
A.3) 21... Ke7 22.Nxb5+ (Bxb5 is also winning) Kd8 (Kf7 23.Ng5+ Kg8 24.Bc4+ Nd5 25.Nxc7! Qxa4 26.Bxd5#) 23.Rd1 wins queen with ongoing attack.
B) 20... e4 21.Rb7! exf3 (planning Qg4) 22.Nxd6+! Kd8 23.Bf5 Qe7 24.Rd1 Bxd6 25.Rxd6+ Qxd6 26.Bxd6 wins.
B.1) 21... exd3 22.Bxd6! Nd5 23.Re1+ Kd8 (Kf7 24.Nfe5+ wins BQ) 24.Nfe5! Nxe5 25.Nxe5 d2 26.Rd1 Qxd6 27.Nf7+ Kd7 28.Nxd6 Kxd6 29.Rxd2 leaves white with a Q vs. N+B and the black king very exposed in the middle.
B.1.a) 22... Bxd6 23.Rxd7 Kxd7 24.Rd1 followed by Rxd3 with Q for R+N and pressure on the K.
B.1.b) 22... Rc8 23.Qxa7 Nd5 24.Nfe5 wins the Q as in the main line.
B.2) 22... Bxd6 23.Rxd7 Kxd7 24.Bf5+ K moves 25.Qxc6 picks the black position apart.
C) 20... d5 21.Rb7 dc 22.Bxc4 regains 2 pawns, traps king in center, and threatens 23.Rd1 (removing Q from defense of c-pawn).
No time for further analysis. Time for review.
|Aug-18-11|| ||Dr. J: Here is some admittedly non-exhaustive analysis that is enough to convince me that White is winning after 20 Qxb5:|
(A) 20...cxb5 21 Nxd6+ is the game continuation.
(B) 20...0-0 <jheiner> 21 Rb7 e5 22 Bxd6 Rfc7 23 Bxc7 exd3 (or 23...exf3 24 Bxg6, or 23...Rxc7 24 Nfe5, or 23...Qxd3 24 Nfe5) 24 Nfe5 Nxe5 25 Nxe5 Qe7 26 Qb3+. White is ahead at least a piece for a pawn.
(C) 20...e4 <Patriot> 21 Rb7 and I do not see anything better for Black than 21...0-0, transposing to line (B). (Certainly not 21...0-0-0 22 Nxd6+.)
(D) 20...Nf4 <David2009/CraftyEGT> 21 Rxe5+! (Let me brag, please: I saw this pretty much right away.) I did not systematically analyze this, but play against the EGT continued as follows: 21...dxe5 22 Ncxe5 Bxe5 23 Nxe5 Qd3 24 Bc4 Ne2+ 25 Kh1 Nc3 26 Qa6 Nfd5 27 Re1 Nc7 (may be a mistake) 28 Qg7 (28 Bxe6 Nxe6 29 Bc4 also wins) N3d5 29 Bxd5 (29 Nd3 also wins) and White now wins everything in sight.
Lots of material there for some kind person to refute!
|Aug-18-11|| ||Dr. J: <CHESSTTCAMPS> and I were writing our posts at the same time, but it looks like they complement each other very nicely. Despite the length, very little overlap!|
|Aug-18-11|| ||Patriot: <BOSTER> I don't think <dzechiel> meant it took only one minute to see the combination. He looked at it for a while and after seeing the queen and king alignment it took a minute to see the combination. But I think you are right that there is still more to calculate. I didn't even consider 20...O-O as a possibility but I did consider 20...e4 which is another critical move.|
<Dr. J> Thanks! You are correct. After 20...e4, 21.Rb7 is the key which <randyjohnson> also pointed out. Many did not consider this and I don't think it can be ignored because it is an attempt at counter-play.
|Aug-18-11|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: I didn't consider the Crafty EGT 20... Nf4 in my analysis, but I managed to find the right continuation 21.Rxe5+! amd won without difficulty on the first attempt - rather unusual for me in complex positions. I see that <Dr.J> did the same.|
|Aug-18-11|| ||Domdaniel: <Marmot> Thanks for pointing out that fascinating game from young Ulf. I like the way it goes on ... and on ... and on. Like a sort of tactical grind.|
|Aug-18-11|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: <Dr J> <(D) 20...Nf4 <David2009/CraftyEGT> 21 Rxe5+! (Let me brag, please: I saw this pretty much right away.) I did not systematically analyze this, but play against the EGT continued as follows: 21...dxe5 22 Ncxe5 Bxe5 23 Nxe5 Qd3 24 Bc4 Ne2+....>|
I think you meant 23...Qe6. White's bishop is on d3, so 24.Bc4 on the next move is not possible. Against 23... Qe6, I chose the more pedestrian 24.Qxf4 leaving white with 2 bishops versus rook, and with the king caught in the middle, the win posed no difficulty.
|Aug-18-11|| ||Dr. J: Yes, you are of course correct. 23...Qe6 it was.|
|Aug-18-11|| ||agb2002: White has the bishop pair for a bishop and three pawns.|
Black threatens 20... bxa4, 20... bxc4, 20... Nf4 (followed by ... Qg4) etc.
The alignment of Black's royal family on the a4-e8 diagonal and the possibility of freeing the c4 square with tempo suggest 20.Rxb5:
A) 20... cxb5 21.Nxd6+
A.1) 21... Bxd6 22.Bxb5 Bxa3 23.Bxd7+ Nxd7 24.Qxa3 + - [Q vs R+B].
A.2) 21... Qxd6 22.Bxb5+ and 23.Bxd6 + - [Q vs R+N].
A.3) 21... Kd8 22.Bxb5
A.3.a) 22... Qc8 23.Nf7#.
A.3.b) 22... Qg4 23.Nf7+ Kc8 24.Ba6+ Kb8 25.Qb5+ Bb6 26.Bd6#.
A.3.c) 22... Qe6 23.Ng5 Qd5 24.Ba6+ Kb8 25.Qb4+ Bb6 26.Qd6+ Qxd6 (26... Bc7 27.Rb1+ and mate next) 27.Bxd7+ Bc7 28.Rb1#.
A.4) 21... Ke7 22.Nxb5+ and the king in the center will surely succumb to White's pieces. For example, 22... Kf7 23.Bc4+ Ke8 (23... Nd5 24.Bxd5+ Qxd5 25.Nxc7) 24.Nxc7+, etc.
A.5) 21... Kf8 22.Nxb5+ looks similar to A.4.
B) 20... e4 21.Tb7
B.1) 21... exd3 22.Nxd6+ Kd8 (else 23.Nb5+ and 24.Nxc7) 23.Nd4 Ne5 24.Rxc7 Kxc7 (24... Qxc7 25.Ne6+) 25.Qa5+ Kb8 26.Rb1+ wins.
B.2) 21... exf3 22.Nxd6+ Kd8 23.Bf5 Ke7 24.Nc8 Qf7 25.Qxc6 looks crushing.
|Aug-18-11|| ||estrick: <David2009: Anderssen vs S Hamel, 1863 White 20? link to Crafty End Game Trainer:
The EGT prudently declines the sacrifice by 20...Nf5! >
This variation leads to White ending up with a Queen and three pawns vs 2 Rooks, which should be enough.
20. Rxb5 Nf4 21. Ncxe5 dxe5 22. Nxe5 cxb5 23. Bxb5 Bxe5 24. Bxd7+ Nxd7 25. Re1 Kd7 26. Rxe5 Nxe5 27. Qxf4 Re8 28. Qg5+ Kc7 29. Qxg7+ Kc6 30. Qxh7 Nc4 31. Bb4 Rab8 32. Bc3 Rbd8 33. h3 etc.
Nevertheless, I had to practice this many times before I could beat EGT every time.
|Aug-18-11|| ||BOSTER: <Dr.J> <Here is ... analysis that is enough to convince me that white is winning after 20.Qxb5?>
20.Rxb5 O-O 21.Rb7 Nf4 22.Bxd6 Qg4!
if 23.Ne3 Nh3+ and then Qxa4
if 23.g3 Bxd6
You missed only move Qg4!
<Patriot> <Dr.J> <You are correct>.
|Aug-18-11|| ||Dr. J: <BOSTER> After 20 Rxb5 (yes, R, not Q) 0-0 21 Rb7 Nf4 22 Ncxe5 still looks pretty good.|
Also <20.Rxb5 O-O 21.Rb7 Nf4 22.Bxd6 Qg4> 23 Ne1 Bxd6 24 Qb3 seems to win.
|Aug-18-11|| ||stst: Have to make use of the bishops' powerful positions,and a R-sac is in order to remove one P to give the a4-e8 diagonal a tight pin:
Now not QxP as this will violate the said principle of keeping that diag. tight:
21.Nxd6+ (making good use of the B@a3)
either BxN or QxN are nuisances for Bk:
if BxN, B@d3xb5 pinning Q&K and Bk loses its Q, QxN is obviously losing in exchange, and with such remarks, Bk can resign (K has no good place to go - e.g. Kd8, WNf7 forks; or Kf8, Nxb5...etc)
|Aug-19-11|| ||BOSTER: Even in your line <Dr.J> after <20.Rb5 O-O
21.Rb7 Nf4 22.Bxd6 Qg4 23.Ne1 Bxd6 24..Qb3 seems to win > 24..N6d5 25.Nxd6 Nh3+
26.Kh1 Nxf2+ white has only draw,because
if 27.Rxf2 Rxf2 28.Rb8+ Rf8 29.Rxa8 Rxa8
30.Qb7 Rf8 . Black is better.
|Aug-20-11|| ||Dr. J: Yes, your analysis appears correct. I could not make any dents in it playing against the EGT.|
However 20 Rxb5 0-0 21 Rb7 Nf4 22 Ncxe5 still looks good. Crafty EGT continues with 22...dxe5 23 Nxe5 Qe6 24 Qxf4 Bxe5 and now both 25 Qc4 and Qg5 lead to the win of a pawn, hence some advantage to White. Do you agree?
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·