|Jul-27-05|| ||EmperorAtahualpa: I would say Black is already lost after 4...c6. Anyone who disagrees?|
|Sep-12-05|| ||gauer: in the Op. Expl., I got here via this move-order: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7 4. Bc4 c6 5. Ng5 Nh6 6. 0-0, and 6. Be7? appears to be the game-losing blunder. Perhaps a black improvement is 6 ... Qf6?!, defending the knight, f7 and other vital kingside squares that the pawns would prefer to not guard and capture at. The knight is also under attack, so the white bishop would require the guarding of the g5 knight, which to my knolwedge is not what a potentially well-developed bishop taking aim at the kingside should necessarily be doing... Possibly black can earn his tempo back via Be7 (or g6, Bg7, depending on how sacrificial and attacking-mode white feels), followed by castles. To the black credit, b5 might eventually chase away the bishop, gaining queenside space. And Nd7 is better placed here than at c6, stopping a possible pin over there, and after castles, King-Rook moves, Nf8 -> Ng6 is another idea, with probable full development, since the light black bishop aids in sweeping with his partner by controlling the sacrificial e6, g4, g5 squares that white strives to attack from.|
c6?! looks dubious, but it may hinder a white d5 push (what is the white idea with the d-pawn? captures at dxe5? stays put? advances?). I've tried a preference to a6!? here, aiming for b5. I can always gain c6 back, if necessary, if white had tried an earlier pin against the Nd7. And if not, c7-c5 would be quicker than the 2-stepper c(7 -> 6 -> 5), playing in Tchigorin Spanish style. Not sure that I'd call c6 game-losing until I see a sacriicial refutation, or a mass of games stats. leading to a forcing line which black would otherwise have to play for.
|Feb-01-06|| ||elh: c6 is virtually forced here. Natural moves like Ngf6 and Be7 lose to the thematic attack against f7 (in various guises). c6 is only as dubious as the Hanham in general. Exeter Chess Club has an excellent page on the Philidor that goes into detail.|
Oh, and gauer's idea of a6 is totally lost. 5. Ng5 Nh6 6. Bxf7+! Nxf7 7. Ne6, and wins. What's all this blab about tempos and space advantages when you didn't examine the simple forcing tactical threats?
|Feb-04-06|| ||gauer: elh: if in your line with 6. Bxf7+, I might try Ke7 in blitz, and now Ne6 is guarded by the King and the Bishop is still en prise. I never tried running it through Fritz, but possibly the pawn sac can earn open lines and development for black in exchange for what may or may not be a forced mating attack. I don't think you have the Queen yet, either. I'm not saying it's better or equal for black, but maybe a blitz trick, Fried Liver style.|
|Feb-15-06|| ||elh: No, gauer, e6 is not guarded by the king, because the white bishop guards that square, en prise or not. In your "blitz trick" line 7. Ne6 traps and wins the queen.|
Please, tell me you're trolling.
|Apr-06-06|| ||gauer: Krause-Leussen analysis 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7 4. Bc4 c6 I use the word "here" in the previous post in the sense that I refer to typical positions which refer to common ♙hilidor Defence transposition move orders, and not to specifically specify that in this particular position (after 4 ♗c4) I would completely support throwing out c6 of the theory books (instead, it is mainly meant to argue the notion that many books such as MCO 14, ♘CO add it in as a necesssity). In other move-orders towards Hanham positions, c6 may be superfluous (note that I didn't even quote a line, since I was referring to an improvement threat of a6, b5, and not an actual move in some position). (4... a6 5. Ng5 Nh6 6. Bxf7+ Ke7 (6... Nxf7 is suggested by elh, endorsing the white side, and black has a possible suggestion for improvement in another line 7. Ne6 I agree that black is now completely lost, but not necessarily 1/2 move ago.) 7. Ne6 Nxf7 8. Nxd8 Kxd8 black has 2 pieces for the ♕ueen, a slight lead in development, and probably a more structurally sound centre (but is also inferior, being down the exchange).) 5. Ng5 Nh6 6. O-O a6|
|Apr-06-06|| ||gauer: a possible improvement" (threat is 7 ... b5 against most sensible replies) suggested by Gauer, of which is the basis of elh's claim that gauer is trolling by endorsing the argument that the line is not unplayable after 4 ... a6 (unfortunately, he didn't really read the message, and assumed that 4 ... a6 is the point of the debacle) (6... Be7 is the game above) (6... b5 7. Bxf7+ (7. Ne6 Qb6 ! 8. Nxf8 ?! a computer idea, suggested by Chessbase threat arrows Nxf8 !? (8... Rxf8 !? 9. Bb3 Qxd4 10. Bxh6 gxh6 (10... Qxb2 ?! is not too good for black 11. Bxg7 Qxa1 12. Bxf8 Nxf8 13. Qxd6 the c and d pawns are weak here, and so a6 may be the more useful thrust than c6, not that white can really force this type of try (but it's strategically better to stay in/near a Closed Spanish pawn structure than to go out venturing)) 11. Nc3 b4 black has pawn compensation) (8... Kxf8 ?! is not to my liking 9. Bxh6 gxh6) (8... bxc4 !? 9. Nxd7 Bxd7) 9. Bxh6 (9. Bb3 Qxd4 and black has a good enough, but less tactical, game (9... exd4 10. Bxh6 (10. Qh5 Bg4 11. Qh4 Ng6 12. Qg3 Be2) 10... gxh6 11. Qh5 Ng6 12. Qxh6 the queenside centre gives a bit of compensation, but black can improve)) 9... bxc4 in preference to 9 ...gxh6?! (9... Qxd4 ? 10. Bxg7 Qxd1 11. Rxd1 Rg8 12. Bxf8 Kxf8 loses a piece)|
|Apr-06-06|| ||gauer: 10. Bxg7 Qxb2 11. Bxh8 (11. Nd2 Rg8 12. Nxc4 greedy Qb4 13. Nxd6+ I see little better to justify the greedy play of white Qxd6 14. Bxe5 3 pawns and a centre for the knight Qg6 black is okay) 11... Qxa1 the black pawn centre may become mobilized) (7. Nxf7 Nxf7 white hasn't won a ♕ueen) 7... Nxf7 8. Ne6 Qf6 9. Nxf8 Rxf8 black is winning) 7. Nxf7 (7. Bxf7+ ?! I do not see the point of the sacrifice Ke7 improves, since 8 ♘e6 is not as big a threat as elh claims, and will soon be returning a piece (7... Nxf7 8. Ne6 black is a pawn down, and slightly worse, but the position is not unplayable, and no ♕ueen is lost, either (please correct me if I am wrong...) Qb6 (8... Qa5)) and now if 8. Ne6 then either ♕ueen try seems good, one which blockades the b-pawn, but which also doesn't get harrassed by ♗d2 - gauer Qa5 (8... Qb6)) 7... Nxf7 !? - I do not see a successful mating attack, and the ♕ueen is in no danger (black is underdeveloped, but is still the colour for choice) 8. f4 (8. Qh5 Qf6 (8... g6 9. Qf3 Qf6)) (8. Qf3 Qf6) (8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. Qh5+ Kg8) 8... exd4 * |
Again, this supports my argument to EmperorAtahualpa that 4 ... c6 ?! is not the game-loser, but is probably less useful than a6!? moves for the Spanish pawn set-ups. Again, 6 Be7? is lost (as well as your hypothetical line which I replied with a conditional answer - not that it would ever occur).
|Apr-06-06|| ||PivotalAnorak: Van der Wiel vs J Van Baarle, 1983|
|Apr-06-06|| ||gauer: Fair enough PivotalAnorik, but then why doesn't Krause just play for the immediate win (with either 5 dxe5 is 5 ... ♘xe5 any better!? - I'll check it and the other game later 5 ... dxe5 6 Ng5, etc, or or with 5 Ng5 Nh6 continuing in the game 6 dxe5!? notice that white apparently fears the opening of the position, and is trying a less risky strategy by immediately dxe5, rather than 0-0 first, and then open up for mating attack, etc)? To me, by playing such an early Ng5, white is trying to duck the black invitation back into a Hungarian or Semi-Italian or Improved Hanham game (which in many move orders has a theoretical main line which leads back into a type of Closed Spanish or Italian-Spanish hybrid system - if white is not going back into a risky 2 Knights Max Lange style of attack or 2 Knights Fried Liver style of attack). Theory recommends the Spanish Attack for white over the 2 Knights attacks for white for a simple reason or so: the former is more strategically rich in theoretical knowledge, and, at least one or more sides is less likely to slip up (and be more likely to have an instant game losing position than in the Spanish) by missing a move-order trap. |
My bet is that white is more likely to seek contention with forcing a drawing line here than go all-out in Fried Liver in a must-win style of play. True, white has lots of winning chances, but black's last mistake that doesn't change the final grade is his 6th move, not his 4th or 5th. White should play more conservatively and just stick with the invitation for offering the so-called Spanish torture, as black is probably clearly surviving here (it's part of theory of the strength of the Pirc move-orders that does not refute an early d6, Nd7 on the black part).
|Feb-29-08|| ||jovack: trap openings are so overrated and only work against opponents who dont know how to develop properly at the start|
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