< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Oct-07-12|| ||agb2002: The material is equal.
My first idea 20.Qh4 only achieves a trapped knight after 20... Bxh4 21.Nd5+ Bf6 22.Bxf6+ Nxf6 23.Nxc7 Rc8. This suggests a change in the move order starting with 20.Nd5:
A) 20... exd5 21.Qh4 h5 22.Bxf6+ Nxf6 23.Qxf6+
A.1) 23... Kh7 24.Rxh5+ gxh5 25.exd5+ Kg8 26.Qg5+ Kh8 27.Qh6+ Kg8 28.Qh7#.
A.2) 23... Kg8 24.exd5
A.2.a) 24... Rde8 25.Rxh5 as in A.1.
A.2.b) 24... Rfe8 25.Rxh5 gxh5 26.Qg5+
A.2.b.i) 26... Kh8 27.Qh6+ Kg8 28.Bh7+ Kh8 29.Bf5+ Kg8 30.Qh7+ Kf8 31.Qh8+ Ke7 32.Re1#.
A.2.b.ii) 26... Kf8 27.Qh6+ Ke7 (27... Kg8 28.Bh7+ transposes to A.2.b.i) 28.Re1+ Kd7 29.Bf5+ Re6 30.Bxe6+ Ke8 (30... fxe6 31.Qxe6#; 30... Ke7 31.Bf5#) 31.Qh8+ Ke7 32.Bf5#.
B) 20... Bxd5 21.Qh4 h5 22.Bxf6+ Nxf6 23.Qxf6+
B.1) 23... Kh7 24.Rxh5+ as in A.1.
B.2) 23... Kg8 24.exd5 as in A.2 but White has an extra bishop.
C) 20... Qc8 21.Nxf6 Nxf6 22.Bxf6+ Kg8 23.Rxh7 Kxh7 24.Qh4+ Kg8 25.Qh8#.
|Oct-07-12|| ||Razgriz: It looked really really familiar for some reason. There was a puzzle that was kind of similar to this one.|
|Oct-07-12|| ||OhioChessFan: An intimidating position at first, but once you find the main idea, it pretty much plays itself out. It reminded me of some Bxh7+ positions in the French where White would just make the move and expect to find the followup.|
|Oct-07-12|| ||JG27Pyth: Beauty.|
|Oct-07-12|| ||Abdel Irada: <OhioChessFan>: <It reminded me of some Bxh7+ positions in the French where White would just make the move and expect to find the followup.>|
Precisely. As I proved, it's possible to go wrong in analyzing it (although I hope I'd have found the correct series of checks to finish the game OTB), but the position is very markedly thematic.
I think that when <LMAJ> said he found the puzzle easy earlier without posting a comprehensive analysis, this may have been why. This is also what I meant by saying that the key move "leaps out and buries its fangs in your visual cortex."
Of course, the pattern *is* simple: There's the pin on the long diagonal, the mate threat on h7, and the union presented by a very Sicilian sort of sacrifice (for White) of the knight on d5 to start the ball rolling. Add in a vulnerable queen on c7 that can't even find a safe square on the d8-h4 diagonal, and the move screams to be played.
|Oct-07-12|| ||Zatrikion: <20.Nd5> (double threatening the Q and the King's side through the a1-h8 diagonal)|
Black is lost if he doesn't capture the N:
21.Nxf6 Nxf6 (21..h5, Rxh5+ mate soon)
23.Rxh7> mate soon
So, after Black accepting the N we have:
21.Qh4 h5> (what else?)
(or 23..Kh7, 24.Rxh5+ gxh5,25.e5+ 1-0)
If <22..Kg8 or 22..Kh7> then:
<23.Qg5> with the immediate threat <24.Rxh5(+)> with mate soon and if <23..Nxf6 then 24.Qxf6> same as the (a) flow.>
Time to check.
|Oct-07-12|| ||paulalbert: I totally missed this one, rejecting my intuitive immediate instinct Nd5 because I did not see the Qh4 idea adding an attack to the f6 square and pinned B and simultaneously ( the critical key idea ) threatening mate at h7. I figured the rook lift to f3 was going to be part of the solution, but it comes much later with the other rook sac on h5, not h7. Along those lines I was looking at radical ideas like an immediate Rxh7ch, thinking I needed to foil the defensive h5 idea by black at once.|
|Oct-07-12|| ||scormus: My best Sunday for ages. Nd5, right! The Qh4 manouver, right! The Rxh5 sac, right! Shuffle the Q+'s to clear away the B g-pawn, ready for Rf1-f3-h3, right! (B can't play Kh7 because of e5+)|
Drat, I missed that W should play Qf6+ before Rf3. Well, maybe if I'd actually come to the position in play I'd have seen it. Maybe, anyway .....
If 28 Rf3 f5 or f6 29 Rh3+ Qh7 30 Rxh7+ Kxh7 then W is still winning but it wouldn't be the same
|Oct-07-12|| ||James D Flynn: Pieces and pawns are equal. White has more space and his Q and R are well placed to exploit any weakness in the Black K position, both his Bs are pointing toward the Black K-side and if the Black B on f6 could be forces off the long diagonal Nd5+ would win the Black Q. The positon looks ripe for a P thrust from the pawns on e4 and f4 to open lines for th bishops and weaken the Black K-side pawn structure. Candidates e5, f5.
20.e5 dxe5 21.Bxg6 fxg6 22.Qxg6 Nc5( a N uncovering the Qs path to h7 is the only defense to Q or R xh7#) 23.Nd5 exd5 24.fxe5 Qg7 and Black successfully defends, White has sacrifices piece for nothing.
29.F5 Ne5 and the long diagonal is now blocked and Whites is forces to retreat.
New candidates: Rh6 to pile up on the weak h7 square and Nd5 immediately to exploit the insecure position of the Black B on f6.
20.Nd5 exd5 21.Qh4 h5 22.Bxf6+ Nxf6 23.Qxf6+ Kg8 24.exd5(White has won a P cut off the diagonal of the Black white square B while opening that of his own B and, more importantly, weakened the pawn structure protecting the Black K.) Rfe8(to provide an potential escape square and prepare to challeng the Q by 25….Qe7) 25.Rxh5 gxh5 26.Qg5+ Kf8 27.Qh6+ Ke7 28.Re1+ Kd7 29.Bf5+ Re6 30.Bxe6+ Ke8 31.Bh3+ Qe7 32.Qh8#.|
|Oct-07-12|| ||PeaceRequiresAnarchy: My intuition for these problems has become so much stronger than my actual game it is almost unbelievable.|
I found the right idea of 20.Nd5 with the follow-up tactic Qh4 in literally about 10-15 seconds.
I then noticed that the Rxh5 sacrifice could quite possibly lead to a successful attack after bringing up my other rook and the e5 threat opening up my bishop line could also be dangerous. I noticed all of this after 20-30 seconds of first seeing the puzzle.
Of course I am terrible at calculation and my analysis was really just guesses at general ideas. I had no idea if the moves were actually sound or not.
But I still am very impressed at my intuition for these tactics problems due to the fact that my over-the-board rating is only about 1600. Is it normal for 1600 players to be able to find the general ideas for these "insane" puzzles as fast I typically can now? Maybe it is, but I don't think so. My tactics/puzzle skills are definitely far better than all other aspects of my game.
Anyway, I found this interesting and thought I'd share. Maybe it's just what happens when you do more puzzles than games.
|Oct-07-12|| ||PeaceRequiresAnarchy: For clarification, it wasn't just the "general idea" that I guessed. I also guessed the exact board continuation move-for-move all the way down to 25.Qg5+ (then I got black's king move wrong) in about 30 seconds! From a 1600 player! [I'm still surprised at myself!]|
|Oct-07-12|| ||gofer: Doesn't <20 Nd5> scream out to be played? SO perhaps this is a little
too easy for a Sunday!?
<20 Nd5 ...>
20 ... Bxb2 21 Nxc7
20 ... Bxd5 21 Qh4 h5 22 Bxf6+ Kg8 23 exd5
20 ... exd5
21 Qh4 h5
22 Bxf6+ Kg8
23 exd5 Nxf6
24 Qxf6 Rfe8
25 Rxh5 gxh5
26 Qg5+ Kf8
27 Qh6+ ...
27 ... Kg8 28 Bh7+ Kh8 29 Bf5+ Kg8 30 Qh7+ Kf8 31 Qh8+ Ke7 32 Re1#
27 ... Ke7 28 Re1+ Kd7 29 Bf5+ Re6 30 Bxe6+ Ke8 31 Qh8+ Ke7 32 Bf5#
So what else has black got?
20 ... Qc5
21 Qh4! h5
Everything looks too horrible for black...
Yep! I didn't quite agree with the game continuation. I felt that
getting Bb1 into the action with 23 exd5 is worth its weight in gold
and given the mating sequence on offer and that the black queen can't
attack Qf6 without a rook move to e8 first I felt my line had merit.
I would have like to compare thoughts with <Crafty EGT>, but the website
seems to be down at the moment - poor thing!
|Oct-07-12|| ||jpolchinski: <LTJ> Your Qxh5! line line after 22... Kg8 is nice. 23 Qg5 Nxf6+ costs W a needed tempo, and 23 Bxd8 is not so immediately decisive.|
|Oct-07-12|| ||FSR: <gofer: Doesn't <20 Nd5> scream out to be played? SO perhaps this is a little too easy for a Sunday!?>|
I agree - though I don't really mind having a Sunday that I can (mostly) solve for once.
|Oct-07-12|| ||FSR: Gheorghiu played the Kan Sicilian for a long time, and drew most of his games with it. http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches... But if you look at the games similar to this one, you'll see that Gheorghiu really got smacked around when he used the setup in this game: Mokry, Vogt, and Nunn (twice) all smashed him. Games Like K Mokry vs Gheorghiu, 1985|
|Oct-07-12|| ||BOSTER: To understand this <POTD> you shouldn't be too smart, because the idea of this combo is very "hackneyed and thoroughly studied".|
The main defender of black king is the bishop f6, which is really almost hanging in the air,and black has another weakness-h7.
So it is necessary to open a1-h8 diagonal.
Knight f3 is <desperado> playing 20.Nd5, attacking the black queen with tempo, doesn't give black time to play Bxb2.
Pay the attention how is useful for white in Sicilian to play Kh1, when you play f2-f4, to avoid the check Qc5+.
After 20.Nd5 exd5 21.Qh4 (double attack h7 and the pinned bishop on f6) h5 22.Bxf6 Nxf6 23.Qxf6 Kg8 the real puzzle only begin, because you can choose many ways to play, and who claimed that today puzzle is very easy, no doubt,even count 24.Rxh5.
What I want to say that it is not enough to see the beginning of combo, you have to see how to blow-off your opponent.
|Oct-07-12|| ||waustad: As often happens late in the week, I see all of the moves but get them out of order.|
|Oct-07-12|| ||chrisowen: Caned him opening long queen straight barb bishop along diagonal in |
get one idea beach ball it nd5 in fixate cleric by 20.nd5 pawn crack
engage off exd5 special one bain 21.Qh4 and mate again looms it over
in before eerie you can say in lay (mans terms) e5 people is a long
hard road for equality since defended four times the boots and algid
truth pawn e4 to e5 blocks end.
|Oct-07-12|| ||chrisowen: At in drop the mother load d5 in got rookh3 to bargain chip h5 ar to |
22.Bxf6+ kingh7 or deem in d7 grabs f6 queen half to capitalise
regain the piece for checking hack away it rookxh5 should be enough
to seal the deal for f6 either in miffed opportunity takes h6 also
check o in us g5 creak the timber in lackey nestled in f6 i very
back dives in knight queen bishop nursed white back to health kingh8
allowing round in g4 lieu 20.Nd5 then raise the rook across in g4 to
h4 and brave bind 22.Bxf6+ light em up petulance in cycle pawn it h5
in just again e5 pt idea, in energy it you in a ten d5! floors i
gumball it ramble in sac ha nd5 apostle b2 intogether f6 lop heading
off in resume the carnage I shall demonstrate edge white in d5
breaks moves all forced until castle re8 might as well in boot
rookh3 engine neck in h8#.
|Oct-07-12|| ||OhioChessFan: <Peace: But I still am very impressed at my intuition for these tactics problems due to the fact that my over-the-board rating is only about 1600. Is it normal for 1600 players to be able to find the general ideas for these "insane" puzzles as fast I typically can now? Maybe it is, but I don't think so. My tactics/puzzle skills are definitely far better than all other aspects of my game.>|
The fact you're given a position and told to find the best move alerts you to the possibility of a strong tactic. That is easier than sitting at the board and straining every move to find something. <Knowing> it's there makes it a bit easier. And some people have intuitive skills a lot better than their overall playing strength. The other possibility is this is the sort of position your tactical skill is greater than your ELO. Most people find some types of puzzles easier than others. I like my chances with a Sunday endgame position better than a Friday Opening, etc.
|Oct-07-12|| ||jancotianno: Certainly made up for the disaster on friday by solving this puzzle, its quite a lot of moves to analyse in this one but it makes it easier that most of blacks replies are practically forced. Overall a decent week but it will be a relief to see a very easy puzzle tomorrow.|
|Oct-07-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <<>jpolchinski: <LTJ> Your Qxh5! line line after 22... Kg8 is nice. 23 Qg5 Nxf6+ costs W a needed tempo, and 23 Bxd8 is not so immediately decisive.>|
Thank you! I'm really happy that I found that line! It felt really good to come up with something that is as decisive as decisive can be.
Thank you for the kind words and thank you for giving my lines your valuable time!
|Oct-07-12|| ||TheBish: K Mokry vs Gheorghiu, 1985|
White to play (20.?) "Insane", even material.
I knew instantly that the winning plan would probably involve a mating attack (with Rh3 aiming at h7 and queen nearby), and most likely the bishop on b2, so the move Nd5 jumped out immediately; this move makes even more sense when you see that after 20...exd5 21. Qh4! is possible, taking advantage of the pin on the long diagonal.
20. Nd5!! exd5
The knight must be captured, obviously (with f6 attacked twice), and taking with the bishop makes no sense, as Black will lose at least a piece after 20...Bxd5 21. Qh4! h5 (forced) 22. Bxf6+ Nxf6+ 23. Qxf6+ Kg8 24. exd5.
21. Qh4! h5 22. Bxf6+ Nxf6 23. Qxf6+ Kg8
Or 23...Kh7 24. Rxh5+! gxh5 25. exd5+ Kg8 26. Qg5+ Kh8 27. Qh6+ Kg8 28. Qh7#.
24. Rxh5! gxh5
Now I originally wanted to play 25. Rf3 (so that if 25...h4 26. Qg5+ Kh7 27. Qxh4+ Kg6 28. Rg3#), but 25...Rfe8! 26. Qh6 h4! (or even 26...Bc8) and White can't win anymore. The h-pawn must be cleared!
25. Qg5+ Kh7 26. Qxh5+ Kg8 27. Qg5+ Kh8
Or 27...Kh7 28. Rf3 Bc8 29. Qh4+ Kg7 30. Rg3+ Bg4 31. Rxg4#.
28. Qf6+! Kg8
Now Black's f-pawn is blockaded, and his queen is completely out of the picture.
29. Rf3 Rfe8 30. Rh3 and mate next move.
Bingo! Speaking of which, I scored two out of three possible bingos on the MLB.TV website during the Nationals-Cardinals game today.
|Oct-07-12|| ||Abdel Irada: Interesting to note from this example the potentially far-reaching effects of a single inaccuracy. When Black played 19. ...♔h8?, presumably he only thought of getting off the g-file to avoid potential pins. Little did he reck that he was walking into another and far deadlier pin, and that the whole course of this spectacular attacking combination would arise only because of that pin.|
|Oct-08-12|| ||abuzic: 20.Nb5 also wins almost the same way....|
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