|Jul-30-05|| ||aw1988: Spite check, anyone?|
|Jul-30-05|| ||al wazir: The pun isn't up to (even) CG's usual standards because, though it's often misstated, the saying is actually "sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander."|
If you think about it you'll agree that sauce is never good for either a goose or a gander: a goose or gander that's in sauce is on someone's dinner table.
|Jul-30-05|| ||I Pawn You: al wazir: It made -me- laugh.
I don't know the experssion you're refering to, but I simply read it as "What's good for the good enough"...
Which I found -fairly- witty, even though it doesn't have a deep meaning.
Chessgames, wanna take this one?
|Jul-30-05|| ||chessgames.com: <24...Nf5 wins for Black> I don't think so, White has 25.Nf6+|
<the pun> Yes, it's not our best effort. Daniel does the puns for the weekends, and they sometimes suffer, but Lee (the Chessgames "punmeister") will return on Monday.
|Jul-30-05|| ||al wazir: 24...Nf5 is an improvement for black. If 25. Nf6+ Kh8 26. Nxe7 Nxf3 27. hxf3 Rxe7. Black's pawn structure is better and I think he has better chances in the endgame.|
|Jul-30-05|| ||mynameisrandy: Maybe Lee should pun his title up. Perhaps he could be known as "Lee, master of Pun Fu" or something. I dunno, he's the authority.|
|Jul-30-05|| ||al wazir: Make that 26...Nxg3 27. hxg3.|
|Jul-30-05|| ||I Pawn You: randy: Hahaha.
Chessgames: You didn't answer the question though...is the pun based on the experssion al wazir mentioned? Just curious. Hah, my guess is you have no idea. ;P
|Jul-30-05|| ||chessgames.com: Yes, it's a play on the expression "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." We were aware that the original expression is "sauce" and not "good", but "good for the goose" is more commonly heard these days.|
|Jul-30-05|| ||crafty: 24...♘f5 25. ♘f6+ ♔h8 26. ♕h5 gxf6 27. exf5 ♖d3 28. fxe6 (eval 2.88; depth 15 ply; 500M nodes)|
|Jul-30-05|| ||kevin86: 1800th post!!
While black is fiddling,white weaves a mating net. Black is left to spite checking-how pathetic.
|Jul-30-05|| ||OhioChessFan: Hmm, and I liked the pun. Anyway, 15...Bxf3 is awful. It allows White's rook to move to a square it wants to get to anyway, while opening up f1 for the Knight as it swings around to the King side. If White had initiated the exchange, at least the Black Queen would be on a nice square, b7, and offering some hope of counterattack.|
|Jul-30-05|| ||themindset: yes, the final move by white is shameful.|
|Jul-30-05|| ||patzer2: Could it be that such an obvious positional move as 23...Nd4?! is the losing move, while 24. Qd1!! moving into a discovered attack is the winner?|
I think that is the case in this amazing game! White's 24. Qd1!! appears to set up a deep and winning attack on Black's slightly weakened castled position, following 23...Nd4?!
Here' some analysis with Fritz 8:
<23...Nd4?!> This appears to be the losing move. Much better and holding the position for Black is 23... Kh8 24. Qe2 Qc8 =. <24. Qd1 !!> This appears to offer White a small initiative that will steadily increase to a decisive advantage. <24...Kh8>
Worse for Black is 24... Nf5 25. Nf6+ Kh8 26. Qh5 gxf6 27. exf5 Rd3 28. fxe6
fxe6 29. exf6 Rxg3 30. hxg3 h6 31. f7+ Kh7 32. f5 Qxg3 33. Be5 Qe3+ 34. Kh1 Qg5 35. Qxg5 hxg5 36. fxe6 Kg6 37. Rf1 Be7 38. g4 Rc8 39. Rd1 Rc6 40. Rd7 Bf8 41. e7 Kxf7 42. exf8=Q+ Kxf8 43. Rxa7 Re6 44. Bc7 Re1+ 45. Kh2 Re6 46. Kg3 Re3+ 47. Kf2 Re4 48. Bxb6 Rxg4 49. a5 Rxc4 50. a6 Rc2+ 51. Ke3 c4 52. Rc7 Ra2 53. a7 Ke8
54. Rc8+ Kf7 55. a8=Q . <25. Qg4 g6?!> This loses immediately to White's strong reply.
Although probably insufficient to hold in this line of analysis, Black need to try 25... f5 26. exf6 g6 27. Rf1 Rf7 28. Bxd4 Rxd4 29. Qxe6 gxh5 30. e5 h4 31. Rgf3 Re4 32. Rd1 h6
33. Qf5 Re2 34. Qd3 Rb2 35. e6 Rxf6 36. Qc3 Bg7 37. Qxb2 Rxe6 38. Qd2 . <26. Nf6! Bg7> Not 26... Re7?? 27. Rh3 . <27. Re1?!>
This almost lets Black back in the game. Better is the obvious and winning 27. Nxd7 Rxd7 28. a5 . <27... Nc2> Also giving Black practical counterchances is 27... Bxf6 28. exf6 Qd6 29. Rh3 Qf8 30. a5 . <28. Rh3! Bxf6 29. exf6
Nxe1?> This error is decisive. Black had to try 29... Qd6! 30. Qg5 Qf8
31. f5 Kg8 32. Qh4 h6 33. fxe6 fxe6 34. Rf1 Kf7 35. Qf4 h5 36. a5 Nd4 37. Re3 Nc2 38. Rg3 Nd4 39. Bxd4 Rxd4 40. Qg5 Qg8 41. axb6 axb6 42. Rb3 Rxe4 43. Rxb6 Rd7 44. Qxc5 Qa8 45. Qb5 with pracical drawing chances. <30. Rxh7+ Kxh7 31. Qh4+ Kg8 32. Qh6 Nf3+ 33. gxf3 1-0> Black resigned as he is reduced to spite checks, which only delay the inevitable mate.
|Jul-30-05|| ||Shubes82: <patzer2> how do you get fritz to spit out such verbose explanations?|
|Jul-30-05|| ||patzer2: <Shubes82> Don't blame Fritz 8. Those are my text entries using the right click button and "text after move" or "text before move" options. Note also that I am editing and selecting lines of analysis as I play through the game move-by-move with Fritz 8. So a long automatic analysis of the position after 23...Nd4?! probably won't give the same results. |
Note that I copied and pasted the game to Fritz 8, and then used infinite analysis to help analyze the game. Note also that when Fritz 8 gives a choice between a complicated winning line and a simpler line, more like a human would play, I will usually pick the less complex line of analysis.
|Jul-30-05|| ||patzer2: <ChessGames.com> According to http://www.fide.com/ratings/card.ph..., GM Guseinov has a much higher rating than indicated here.|
|Jul-30-05|| ||OhioChessFan: <Patzer2>, the analysis of 23...Nd4 is interesting. It does look obvious, but the problem is it pushes the White Queen where she wants to go anyway. I wonder if Black saw how the Queen couldn't get to e2, but forgot that blocking the Rooks allowed White to get on the same diagonal anyway, via d1.|
|Jul-30-05|| ||Jafar219: 2391 is Elmir Guseinov`s rating.Gadir Guseinov`s rating is 2585.|
|Jul-30-05|| ||patzer2: <Jafar219> Thanks for the correction. I guess this was the Elmir Guseinov rated 2391 who played in the 6th European Individual Championship 2005, and was one of three of games won in the 13 rounds of this tournament, placing him 171st according to http://www.eurochamp.pl/pub/EIC-200...|
|Jul-30-05|| ||Jafar219: <patzer2> you are right!|
|Jul-30-05|| ||al wazir: <patzer2 Worse for Black is 24... Nf5 25. Nf6+ Kh8 26. Qh5 gxf6 27. exf5 Rd3 28. fxe6 fxe6 29. exf6 Rxg3 30. hxg3 h6 31. f7+ Kh7 32. f5 Qxg3 33. Be5 Qe3+ 34. Kh1 Qg5 35. Qxg5 hxg5 36. fxe6 Kg6 37. Rf1 Be7 38. g4 Rc8 39. Rd1 Rc6 40. Rd7 Bf8 41. e7 Kxf7 42. exf8=Q+ Kxf8 43. Rxa7 Re6 44. Bc7 Re1+ 45. Kh2 Re6 46. Kg3 Re3+ 47. Kf2 Re4 48. Bxb6 Rxg4 49. a5 Rxc4 50. a6 Rc2+ 51. Ke3 c4 52. Rc7 Ra2 53. a7 Ke8 54. Rc8+ Kf7 55. a8=Q .> |
24...Nf5 is the move I suggested as a win for black . (I deleted the post and changed it to an "improvement" before CG posted a demur.) Don't think I'm lacking in appreciation for the work you put into analyzing and annotating these games--whereas I usually spend a few minutes before posting and often make mistakes--but I must ask: How can a line that loses in 55 moves instead of 33 be "worse for black"?
|Jul-30-05|| ||patzer2: <al wazir> < How can a line that loses in 55 moves instead of 33 be "worse for black"?> Since White wins in both lines, I suppose it doesn't make much difference. Fritz 8 gave the move played a slightly better evaluation, and I selected one of Fritz 8's less than best line for 24...Nf5 (more like I would play) to account for the length of the line.|
|Jul-31-05|| ||ahmadov: Gadir Guseinov did not play against Zelcic at the 6th Individual European Championship. I think chessgames.com should replace the name Gadir with Elmir here.|