< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Jul-07-05|| ||benveniste: I stopped looking after finding 28 ... Nf5 as well. The fact that it wins doesn't diminish the feat of finding Qxg2 over the board.|
|Jul-07-05|| ||Richard Taylor: I was convinced Back had a forced win by sacrifing the Queen|
So I only looked at
27. ...Q:g2+ 28. K:g2 Rf2+
Now a) 29. Kg1 Rf1+ 30. Kg2 Rf8f2+ 31. Kg3 Nf5+!
Now if 32. e:f5 Rg7+ 33. Kh3 Rh8#
and if 32. Kh3 Rh1+ 33. Kg4 N:h3+ and if 34. Kg5 Rff5+!! 35. e:f5 R:f5+ 35. Kh3 Rh5# if 34. Kg3 Nf5+ ! and wins - check the variations itis forced mate in all.
If in a) 31 Kh3 Bc8+ 32. Kg3 Rf3+ 33 Kg2 Bh3+ 34 Kh2 Rf8f2+ 35. Kg1 Rg2+ 36. Kh1 Rf1+ 37. Ng1 Rfg1# And if 35.Kh1 Bg2+ 36. Kh2 Bf1+ 37. Kg1 Rg2+ 38. Kh1 Rh3# Unfortunately 37 Kh1 can be played and also 36. Kg1 etc
So if in a) 31 Kh3 Nf5 32. e:f5 Rh1+ 33. Kg3 Rg3+ 34. Kf4 Rf1# Or 33. Kg4 g:f5+ 34. Kg5 is at least a draw which is sad ..so earlier after 31. Kh3 black has to take a draw by Bc8+ etc As in fact White can play 32 Kh2 when there is only Rff2+ and a perpetual
|Jul-07-05|| ||Richard Taylor: Actually I think Iwas right!!
27.... Qg2+ 28 Kg2 Rf2+
Now a) 29. Kg1 Rf1!+ 30 Kg2 Be4+
I am sure that the Queen sac wins but it is getting on to 2 am here...
|Jul-07-05|| ||Richard Taylor: No - I wasnt - Black can grovel out and get into positions that lead only to draw...blast and bother!!...|
|Jul-07-05|| ||Eric Xanthus: <jahhaj> interesting that we see things quite the opposite. Any position where "all I need is a tempo" but my king is boxed in and at the mercy of all four of my opponent's attacking pieces strikes me as hopeless. |
I agree, of course, that the position must be calculated to the end. I was merely sharing my weakness for assuming the win is in hand.
|Jul-07-05|| ||zb2cr: Got it! Pretty amazing position.|
|Jul-07-05|| ||Shubes82: <jahhaj> i completely know what you are talking about. Some of my first looks over the board are these rediculous sacrifices and tactics that arent even there. However, it has led to some really nice combinations in my play, but i feel like im either trying to force things too much, or missing other really good positional/strategic moves. Time to pick up some Nimzovitch i guess!|
|Jul-07-05|| ||ReikiMaster: <aginis> black is not up a rook but the exchange - both sides have 5 pieces. Thus 28.-Qxg2+ not only stops mate at g7 but also increases black's material advantage.|
|Jul-07-05|| ||patzer2: Correction to my previous post: If 31. Kg2, then 31...R(3)f2+ 32. Kh3 [32. Kg3 Rg2+ 33. Kh3 Rh1#] 32...Rh1+ 33. Kg4 [33. Kg3 Rf3+ 34. Kg2 (34. Kg4 Nf5 <35. Qg5> h5+ ) 34...R(3)h3+ 35. Kf2 R(3)h2+ 36. Kg3 Nf4+ ] 33...Nf5 <34. Qg5> h5+ appears to win easily for Black.|
|Jul-07-05|| ||howardtheduck: Can anyone tell me why 32. kh2. I had it all figured out until that move.
I dont know why white havent ate the black rook?|
|Jul-07-05|| ||patzer2: <howardtheduck> If 32. Kxg3, then 32...Nf5+ snares the Queen and leaves Black a piece up with an easy win.|
|Jul-07-05|| ||howardtheduck: Damn knight i have a disastrous tendency to count them as "out of play when they are far from the action.
Thanks <patzer2> for pointing it out for me|
|Jul-07-05|| ||patzer2: <SamuelS> After 28...Qxg2+ 29. Kxg2 Bxe4+ 30. Kh3 Rh1+ <31. Kg4>, Black wins with 31...Nf5 32. Qg5 h5+ .|
|Jul-07-05|| ||xxdsdxx: White is facing mate, so everything must be forced. 28...Qxg2 was obvious. 29. Kxg2 (forced) Rf2+. Choice is Kg3 or Kh3. 30. Kg3 Nf5+ (lose the Queen or take the Knight). 31. exf5 Rg2+ 32. h3 (forced) Rh1# Second choice 30. Kh3. Rh1+ 31. Kg3 Nf5+ (lose the Queen or take the Night) 32. exf5 Rg2+ 33. Kf4 Rf1#. Guess I should have explored the lose the Queen option a little deeper...|
|Jul-07-05|| ||morphy234: yay, I got the puzzle|
|Jul-07-05|| ||kevin86: It looks like white will win this one,until black turns on the sac machine---In a later bit of irony,white moves his queen to where his threatened mate was but it had been reduced to a spite check-a vain attempt to slo down the ending of his own king's life.|
|Jul-07-05|| ||jahhaj: <Shubes82> Glad I'm not the only one, or maybe we're both going senile together!|
|Jul-07-05|| ||TigerPawns: if 31. Kg4 then ... Nf5 32. Qg5 h5+ etc|
|Jul-07-05|| ||Knight13: Haven't had a interesting enough Thursday puzzle for a while. This one is interesting.|
|Jul-07-05|| ||sandyobrien: *looks at diagram*
"Are you kidding me? Oh, black to play."
Pretty cool combination though.
|Jul-07-05|| ||chessic eric: Here are the lines I saw:
All variations begin:
30.Kh3(not Kg3, Nf5+),Rh1+
31.Kg4,Bf3+ (<patzer2> see below)
Obviously black does better in the text, but I think there is a line without white's 31.Ng3 which gives white a better ending than the text. Here are the lines without white's 31.Ng3 that i've looked at.
34.Kg5,Nf5 or 34.Kf4,Bc6+ 35.Kg4[Kg5?,Rg2+],Bd7+ 36.Kg3,Nf5+ or 36.Kg5,Rg2+
31.Kg4,Nf5(not Bf5+,Kg5 preventing Nf5)
33.Nxf4 and black has more work to do
Line B2 looks promising (B1 stinks!) to return black's queen for a rook, forcing a roughly equal endgame. Can anyone improve on black's play? Because if not, I'd rather play an ending with two rooks and a knight as black from lines A1 and A2 rather than the B2 ending (presuming white finds it). It seems to me that Rh1+ is better than R8f3+ since it leaves the f3 square for the black bishop.
Also, <patzer2> In the line
white can play better than 32.Qg5? with 32.Qxf8+,Kxf8, which is not as good an ending as line A1 (with 31....,Bf3+.)
|Jul-07-05|| ||Richard Taylor: My analysis started from move 27 so I didnt really study the problem as such. I played the agme over up to before Rf1+ and analysed from there lol - I thought that 28. Qxg7+ was the move tho - but didn't analyse it -if the game is taken back a bit this can be seen as a great exchange sacrifice and the combination at the end well calculated.|
|Jul-07-05|| ||Richard Taylor: I'm getting old - it's White who loses the exchange.|
|Jul-07-05|| ||fgh: Curiously, I solved this one in less than 10 seconds.|
|Jul-10-05|| ||patzer2: <chessic eric> Thanks for pointing out that in the line 30... Rh1+ 31. Kg4, the followup <31...Bf3+!> Kg3 32. Nf5 is White's strongest continuation.|
However, after the line 30... Rh1+ 31. Kg4 <Nf5!?>, Black is still winning. Play could continue 32. Qg5 (actually worse for White here is <32. Qxf8+?!> Kxf8 33. Bf6 Rf1 34. Kh3 Rf2 35. h5 Bg2+ 36. Kh2 Bf3+ 37. Kg1 Rxe2 38. Rxe2 Bxe2 ) 32... h5+ 33. Kf4 Bb1! 34. Qxg6+ Ng7+ 35. Kg5 Bxg6 36. Kxg6 Rxh4 .
Even though my line works, I must admit the win you pointed out is stronger, and that I was without the aid of Fritz 8 when I found this alternative line.
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