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|Jun-06-10|| ||Marmot PFL: <VincentL> Black should not be forced to move his king to the back row, nor to guard the g pawn which is not going anywhere anyway. He could play 61...Bd6 62 Kxf5 for example and answer Ke4 with Kd6 to stop Kd5. If white ever plays d5 than this is no longer an option and Kb6 can be answered by Bb8. Not positive that black can draw, but I can't find a winning plan for white.|
|Jun-06-10|| ||shatranj7: This really didn't deserve "insane" status. I found the first move at first glance, and the winning line a few minutes later. If a patzer like me can do that, then the problem is certainly difficult, at best.|
|Jun-06-10|| ||kellmano: <OBIT: "Too easy for a Sunday"|
Oh, funny. You played 59. c4 not so much because you could visualize the winning position but because 59. cd seemed too obvious. Do you see why 59. cd does NOT work? Do you see the zugzwang positions (and there are at least a few) that give White the win after 59. c4? In a real game, wouldn't you just play 59. cd, figuring three pawns are better than two? (Remember, if you don't take this pawn it can be sacrificed, pulling the bishop away and allowing the Black king to grab one of the pawns.)
You guys kill me. You guessed the right way to get on the horse, and now you're taking credit for winning the Kentucky Derby.>
Great comment man. As if the solution would be 'cxd winning a pawn'. The difficulty is in what ensues, not the initial position. Nice horse-racing analogy as well.
|Jun-06-10|| ||VincentL: <Once>"The only competition is with ourselves".|
I agree with this.
I also think there is a certain element of luck involved, and our subjective evaluation of the level of difficulty depends on whether we have that luck on a particular day.
Let us suppose there are three candidate moves, but only one solves the problem against all defences. We might choose the right candidate the first time, and solve the puzzle quickly - and claim it was easy. Or we might spend time analysing variations with the two "wrong" candidates, only to find some defence a few moves down the line. Since we now take more time to solve the puzzle we may claim that it was more difficult.
|Jun-06-10|| ||zb2cr: <VincentL>: "Or we might spend time analysing variations with the two "wrong" candidates, only to find some defence a few moves down the line. Since we now take more time to solve the puzzle we may claim that it was more difficult."|
Give that man a cigar!
Solving the puzzle involves seeing not just the initial move, but all the "key" moves or lines. The key move may be several moves deep in the analysis. If you have comprehended it, then I would say you have solved the puzzle.
|Jun-06-10|| ||Once: Yup, luck certainly plays a part. I think we all have a tendency to "fall in love" with a move, and it's often the first move that we see in a position. And when we fall in love, we are often prepared to forgive all manner of transgressions and not to see that the object of our affection isn't quite what we think it is.|
And sometimes, luck is with us in this process. If we fall in love with the right move, then we can feel like geniuses.
I recall many moons ago spotting a Sunday solution that most of the regulars missed. And all that day I felt about six inches taller and several IQ points brainier. If anyone had asked me why my chest was disproportionately puffed, I would have said "I spotted a move that Dzechiel and Jimfromprovidence missed" and they would have thought I was awagh with the faeries.
But as subsequent sundays proved, it was mostly a fluke. I wasn't able to replicate it on a regular basis. Reality can be a hard taskmaster.
Mind you, I keep returning to the quote "the more I practise, the luckier I get". Not sure who said this first - Gary Player or Arnold Palmer?
|Jun-06-10|| ||Funicular: Yeah, black can hold a draw with the King holding steady @ e7 and the bishop coming and going from/to b8 to/from d6.|
Though i wouldn't notice that the moment I'd play cd. If a computer program offered me that, since there's no zugzwang, i'd know for sure there was something tricky, but OTB i'd surely played cd.
In any case, and like as many of us here, the solution was my second option,
|Jun-06-10|| ||BOSTER: <Blunderdome> is there really no win after exd?>
<Once> <Fritz reckons that white is winning>. This is the "human's" <Once> opinion.<If there is a win here,it ain't easy>. Where is an answer?
I guess,that after cxd3 White can not win, because black can create an absolute blockade.
Many players said that move cxd3 is "obvious". I don't think so. The c pawn is more valuable than d (after cxd3), because c pawn is more far from center, this is why preferable to advance it .|
|Jun-06-10|| ||Once: <BOSTER> I was really hoping that someone with better silicon than me could settle whether 59. cxd3 wins or draws. I couldn't (and still can't) see a win, but Fritz (without tablebases) insists the eval is over +4.|
Usually by now someone like RV will have given us the definitive answer. Until that arrives, it seems 59. c4 definitely wins and 59. cxd3 probably draws.
|Jun-06-10|| ||wals: Rybka 3 1-cpu: 3071mb hash: depth 39:
for what it's worth, after 59.cxd3
1. (2.64): 59...Bb8+ 60.Kf5 Bf4 61.d4 Bb8 62.Kxg5 Ba7 63.d5 Bb8 64.Kf5 Bc7 65.Ke4 Bb8 66.Kd4 Kd6 67.Bf5 Ba7+ 68.Kc4 Bb8 69.Kb5 Ba7 70.Ka6 Bb8 71.Kb6
2. (2.64): 59...Be3 60.Ke4 Ba7 61.Kf5 Bb8 62.Kxg5 Ba7 63.d4 Bb8 64.Kf5
3. (2.64): 59...Bf2 60.Kf5 Bg3 61.Kxg5
4. (2.64): 59...Bg1 60.Kf5 Ba7 61.d4
5. (2.64): 59...Ke8 60.d4 Ke7 61.Kf5 Bb8 62.Kxg5 Ba7 63.d5 Bb8 64.Kf5 Bc7 65.Ke4 Bb8 66.Kd4 Kd6 67.Bf5 Ba7+ 68.Kc4 Bb8 69.Kb5 Ba7 70.Ka6 Bb8 71.Kb6
|Jun-06-10|| ||Jimfromprovidence: Personally, by and large, none of the postings on the puzzle page bother me that much. Everyone contributes what he or she can. This is a collaborative forum. Itís not easy for some to post their insights because of fear of making errors and I respect that. |
I admire those who can solve these weekend puzzles over the board. I'm usually not one of them.
My philosophy is this: I hate not being able to understand right away why a certain continuation works. I need to know, understand and then be able to explain the solution.
For that reason I typically spend whatever time I need to figure out what happened expo facto (greatly assisted by Rybka freeware when necessary). And, if it adds to the discussion, I'll explain the logic behind what I came up with.
In today's puzzle I'm sure I would have played 59 cxd3 in a game situation because the resultant drawing position is one I'm not familiar with.
Live and learn.
|Jun-06-10|| ||bob88: well what if this was rated <very easy>? would you take the pawn?,first of all if it was insane you would obviously do a insane move,secondly if you had no idea what the move was you probally would just take the pawn
nice game anyway|
|Jun-06-10|| ||johnlspouge: < <Once> wrote: <BOSTER> I was really hoping that someone with better silicon than me could settle whether 59. cxd3 wins or draws. I couldn't (and still can't) see a win, but Fritz (without tablebases) insists the eval is over +4. >|
Just in case you do not believe me, Toga stalls out at a +6 P evaluation at 30 plies.
My post is essentially as close to a theorem as I have ever proved on <CG>. There is simply no way for White to make progress after 59.cxd3.
|Jun-06-10|| ||blueofnoon: In any case, kudos to GM Kosteniuk who found 59.c4 over the board, with clock ticking.|
This position could be covered in Dvoretsky's next book or article on endgame.
|Jun-06-10|| ||WhiteRook48: got it|
|Jun-06-10|| ||caissafan1963: Can someone show me the White win after 63. ... d1=Q? 64. Bxd1 Kxe6, and I can't see how White can make progress after Black gets his K to d6.|
|Jun-06-10|| ||HowDoesTheHorsieMove: Drat! I chose 59. c3 instead.|
|Jun-06-10|| ||VincentL: On 24 Jan 2006<EmperorAtahualpa>posted the link to Alexandra Kosteniuk's own comments on 59. cxd3. :|
After 59.cxd3? Black has a watertight fortress as Kosteniuk proves in the
German Schachmagazin 64,19/2005: 59...Bb8+ 60.Kf5 Bd6 61.Kxg5 Bb8 62.d4 Bd6 63.Kf5 Bc7 64.d5 Bd6 65.Be2 Bb8 66.Bb5 Bc7 67.Bd7 Bd6 68.Bc8 Bb8 69.Ke4 Bd6 70.Kd4 Kd8 71.Kc4
Black simply waits in her fortress:
71...Ke7 (71...Kc7? hands White the key on a silver platter: 72.Kb5 Kd8 73.Kb6 Bb8 74.d6 Bxd6 75.Ka7 ) 72.Kb5 Bc7 73.Kc6 Bb8=.
|Jun-06-10|| ||turbo231: You would think with 3 passed pawns a person could think of something. But i couldn't.|
|Jun-06-10|| ||vanytchouck: I ' ve put the position on Fritz 10 and play it against the computer.|
I've got a good intuition as i've found c4.
I thought about this move because when i notice that the Bg4 was guarding the d1 square while protecting e6 (in fact, i missed the decoy by d1 = Q).
I was also pretty sure that the linked passed pawns "b" and "c" (helped by the king on the Q side)would be much stronger than linked passed pawns "d" and "e".
Honestly, i didn't know why. Just a good feeling.
Here are the moves (blitz 10 mn):
59. c4 Bb8 +
60. Kd5 d2
61. Kc6 Be5
62. Kb6 Bb8
63. c5 d1 = Q
64. Bxd1 Kxe6
65. c6 Kd6
66. Bf3 g4
67. Bxg4 Bc7+
68. Kb5 Bd8
69. Bf3 Bc7
70. Ka6 Bd8
71. Kb6 1-0
It's the second ever sunday puzzle that i manage to figure out.
|Jun-06-10|| ||I play the Fred: <Can someone show me the White win after 63. ... d1=Q? 64. Bxd1 Kxe6, and I can't see how White can make progress after Black gets his K to d6.>
Your overall conclusion that white cannot force the win may be right, but the black king cannot get to d6 after 63...d1=Q 64 Bxd1 Kxe6 65 Bg4+ Ke7 66 Kd5.|
|Jun-06-10|| ||M.Hassan: If cpawn does not take black's d pawn,it can advance to d5 and if black bishop takes it, b pawn is Queened. On the other hand black's d pawn has to Queen in the white square of d1 which can be hunted by the white Bishop on g4. Furthermore, the position of white Bishop is safe and sound. It has stopped the advance of black's g pawn and it can not be attacked by the black King, so I think the game could have progressed as below:
And white wins. Let's see if it is correct.
Not exactly correct!!!
|Jun-07-10|| ||OBIT: <I play the Fred:>In your comment to the question from <caissafan1963>, after 63...d1=Q 64. Bxd1 Kxe6 65. Bg4+ Ke7 65. Kd5 isn't making progress. This was my main line when I originally analyzed the endgame, and it probably took me a good hour to realize the blockade when the Black king gets to d6 is not airtight. After 64...Kxe6, the most direct route to victory is 65. Kb6 Kd6 66. Bf3! g4 67. Bg2 g3 68. Bf3, putting Black in zugzwang: 68...Bc7+ allows 69. Ka7, and any king move allows 69. c7. You might note a similar zugzwang occurs if the Black king is on d8 instead of d6 -- the bishop has full use of the diagonal this time, but the problem is Black can't allow Ka7. |
This zugzwang is one point to an earlier comment I made about how some players seem to think 59. c4 is obviously better than 59. cd. (No, I wasn't directing the comment to anyone is particular, paranoid poster, heh heh.) Sure, I'll believe the c-pawn is slightly better than the d-pawn in this ending, but is it worth giving up the e-pawn to keep the c-pawn? How often do you see an ending where three passed pawns do not win? If you don't see the zugzwang position with the king on ...Kd6, then I don't think playing 59. c4 is a rational decision, more like "Well, this is a puzzle, and 59. cd is the obvious choice, so it can't be correct." But, Kosteniuk actually saw all this and worked it out over the board? Wow, no way am I in this chick's league.
|Jun-07-10|| ||caissafan1963: OK, I overlooked the idea of retreating the B to protect the c-pawn. Thanks!|
|Jun-08-10|| ||turbo231: <vanychouck>
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