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|Jul-03-12|| ||scormus: <al wazir> 79 ... Nd5 looks like the most interesting try. Keeps alive the possibility of B winning (80 K or N xd5??) But it also gives B the opportunity to lose.|
|Jul-03-12|| ||Phony Benoni: <scormus> User: Marmot PFL, who suggested <79...Nc4>, pointed out that after <80.a4 Nd2+!>|
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Black has a draw by perpetual check. White's king must keep his knight protected, and 81.Ke3 allows Black to queen with check. That leaves <81.Ke5 Nc4+>, and White's king must return to e4. (I don't think Black would want to risk 81...Nf3+ and 82...g1Q; both his pieces would be very far away from the queenside.)
|Jul-03-12|| ||Jimfromprovidence: I like 79...Nc4 because it gives black a chance for a swindle.|
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Either 80 Kd4 or 80 Ke3 lose for black and if 80 a4 80..Nd2+, below, this forces a perpetual with 81 Ke5 or white loses.
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|Jul-03-12|| ||sevenseaman: Seeing the position Black should be happy to get a draw.To aspire for anything more than a draw will be presumptuous.|
That being cleared up these are my thoughts.
79...Nc4 and 79...g1=N are the two candidate moves.
I prefer 79...Nc4 as there is a chance of White slipping up.
(79...g1=N, Q or R will be forked by 80. nh3+0)
|Jul-03-12|| ||SamAtoms1980: Let's see, Black is about to lose his pawn, so he must be playing for a draw. After 79....Nd5, White can't take the knight either way and has to play 80.Nxg2 Nc3+, but the Nalimov table after 81.Ke5 Nxb5 82.a4 has White winning. Damn. I totally forgot the underpromotion theme, and 79....g1=N is an obvious draw.|
|Jul-03-12|| ||Redeemed: Darn, in a game I would have immediately went Nd5, assuming that it would be the easiest way to a draw. I guess I was wrong.|
|Jul-03-12|| ||poszvald: I think draw is a max for black, therefore promotion to a knight would be sufficient to reach that. In case other move, white takes pawn and I think can get one pawn to promote...|
|Jul-03-12|| ||TheaN: Tuesday 3 July 2012
Material: endgame, White +2 vs +
Such a position where you would not expect that multiple moves lead to the same result. Being fairly certain my move was the only possible try for Black to pick up a draw I read through the kibitzes and some another interesting idea. Alas, I had in mind that:
<79....g1=N> at least saves the g-pawn with material gain. Promoting to anything else allows the fork on h3, otherwise White simply picks it up on g2.
<80.Nd5> White would think again throwing in the towel now.
<80....Na4> trading on d5 loses. d7 or a4 are alike for the Knight, though in all fairness d7 is more secure.
<81.b6 Nc5† 82.Kd4 Nb7 1/2> the Black knight has a safe haven on b7 for a while, the g1-knight is free to move now. This is likely done now.
What I find intruiging though, is that <79....Nc4!> works as well. Due to the threat on a3, 80.Nxg2 Nxa3 is a draw on the spot. After <80.a4 Nd2†!> creates very risky situations for White, actually forcing <81.Ke5 Nc4† 82.Ke4 Nd2† 1/2> as proposed before. Interesting take on the position.
|Jul-03-12|| ||Once: Hmm. Clearly we've got to promote to a knight and then cross our fingers that we can sacrifice our two knights for the two white pawns. I <think> we're going to be okay.|
Or an Amazon, and win on material. Or a Zebra (a 2,3 leaper) just to be fancy.
A whole week of underpromotions? Or will the theme run out of steam soon?
|Jul-03-12|| ||Oxspawn: Before I go and get depressed by finding that everyone but me sees the solution, this is what I would think/say if I saw this over the board. “If black leaves the pawn where it is, white will take it. That leave black with unenviable job of trying to stop two white pawns with a knight and a king against a knight and king. I am not even thinking about how to tackle that.
“If black ‘queens’ the pawn then white plays h3 check and takes the queen next move. . Adapting Once’s Amazonian solution from yesterday, if black could promote to a knishop (bishight?) then white would be in round the corner check and all kinds of mayhem would ensue. But the rules of chess appear to rule that out. If black converts the pawn to a knight, this prevents the fork, but then even if black can take the white knight for no penalty, black is left with the prospect of securing mate with two knights while keeping the pawns at bay. You can of course set up a mating position with two knights, but I was taught it was impossible to force mate under these conditions. So my ‘solution’ is to promote to a knight and then try to scramble a draw."
This seems unambitious and I don't even know if I could achieve it. But, it’s my birthday so I can lose and cry if I want to.”|
|Jul-03-12|| ||scormus: <Phony Benoni: ... 79...Nc4 80.a4 Nd2+! .... perpetual check>|
Ah yes. Then that may be the most clear cut drawing line.
<Once> according to the rules onee can promote to Q, R, B, N. That's only 4 and there are 7 days in the week. We need top extend the rules to meet this situation. You've mentioned already the Amazon, so why not also an "impotent K", moves as a K but can be taken. Or how about a pawn, cannot move at all once it reaches the 8th rank ... alternatively a zero, it is taken off the board. At the other end of the scale "the cyborg" which attacks every square on the board that is not occupied by anything of the same colour.
|Jul-03-12|| ||RookFile: Right, that's what I thought, 79... Nc4 may be the best move. Don't have time to work on it, though.|
|Jul-03-12|| ||MountainMatt: Another day, another underpromotion. I, of course, missed that, and thought Nd5 was the answer. Glad to see I'm not the only one.|
|Jul-03-12|| ||whiteshark: <jackpawn: Promote to a knight. I admit it took me a minute to find it. Seems I always initially miss under-promotions.> Great minds think alike. :D|
|Jul-03-12|| ||Klopstix: Finally :)|
|Jul-03-12|| ||zb2cr: How can Black save a draw with White's Knight ready to either take his last Pawn or to fork his King and new Queen if he promotes? Underpromote to a Knight with 79. ... g1=N! Now the fork doesn't work. With a Knight against two connected passed Pawns, Black still has to work for the draw, but it should be do-able.|
|Jul-03-12|| ||dufferps: Wow! I had to blunder with 79. ... g1=Q? to see why g1=N was the right choice.|
|Jul-03-12|| ||Memethecat: A bit different.
79...g1=N gets a draw, the best black can hope for.
|Jul-03-12|| ||paulalbert: g1=N seemed like the likely best move, but as some have pointed out, other N moves might also draw. I went with the under promotion, but proper subsequent play is required, and I was not confident about the proper plan at all.|
|Jul-03-12|| ||SuperPatzer77: Really cool!! It's the underpromotion all this week!! |
A lot of fun to study this game with the underpromotion!
|Jul-03-12|| ||FSR: The obvious move is 79...g1(N), which should eventually draw. 79...Nc4! is at least equally good, forcing an immediate draw after either 80.Nxg2 Nxa3 81.b6 Nc4 82.b7 Nd6+ or 80.a4 Nd2+! 81.Ke5 (81.Ke3?? g1(Q) check!) Nf3+ 82.Ke4 Nd2+.|
|Jul-03-12|| ||BlackSheep: Black hopes for a draw via knight promotion and then collecting the two white pawns with the knights I guess but I dont know a line to prove this . And I'll take this opportunity to say Happy Birthday to <Oxspawn> while I'm here .|
|Jul-03-12|| ||Mojodomo: Happy Birthday <Oxspawn>! You got further than I did on this one. |
A pedantic question: will it be perpetual check in the Nc4 line, or draw by repetition, since check is technically not forced?
|Jul-03-12|| ||awfulhangover: I think this was very easy. How else not to lose the pawn or the new piece after promotion?
Is it underpromotion week?|
|Jul-03-12|| ||FSR: <Mojodomo: ... A pedantic question: will it be perpetual check in the Nc4 line, or draw by repetition, since check is technically not forced?>|
The Laws of Chess don't actually say anything about "perpetual check." It would be a draw by three-time repetition of position, or a draw by agreement upon the players recognizing the imminent or actual three-time repetition of position.
<9.2 The game is drawn upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves):
a. is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or
b. has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.
Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same.
Positions are not the same if a pawn that could have been captured en passant can no longer be captured in this manner. When a king or a rook is forced to move, it will lose its castling rights, if any, only after it is moved.> http://www.fide.com/component/handb...
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