< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Mar-01-06|| ||belka: <thorndeux: I, for example, can't find a good white answer to 28...Rg6 even when I see the position after 28.Qh8+ right in front of me>|
Definitely a good puzzle. It's 28. Qh7+, so after 28... Rg6, 29. Qxf7+
If 29... Ke4, 30. Qxg6+ or Rxg6 wins the rook immediately
If 29... Rf6, 30. Rg4+ Ke4 31. Qxf6
and the attack continues. White will be able to keep the Black king offsides by checking from above. There just aren't any Black pieces in position to defend. Without shelter, White always has a perpetual in his back pocket, and I doubt that he can't win a piece with a skewer somewhere, just as in the game continuation.
|Mar-01-06|| ||kevin86: This is a good example of the two bishop sac. In the whirlwind that followed,white actually wound up a rook to the good---including the poor bishop that only had one move:into the jaws of Ms. Pac Man-aka the white queen.|
|Mar-01-06|| ||YouRang: <cavallnegre><Has anyone looked at 21. Bf6 by any chance? I haven't analyzed much afterward, but I believe it also leads to a quick end for black.> I just spent a few minutes looking at it, but couldn't find a win for white.|
After 21. Bf6 gxf6, this is about the best I could find:
22. Qg4+ Kh8
23. Qh4 f5
24. Qf6+ Kg8
25. Rf3 Re8
26. Qh6 Kh8
27. Rg3 Be5
And black is better. Do you see a line that works better?
|Mar-01-06|| ||ice lemon tea: <homersheineken: <wannabe>Forgive my ignorance, but where can i get fritz/shredder?? Grazie!>|
u can simply buy the software CD from ebay or amazon.com. alternatively u can also using chesspad to view ur game from yahoochess. google it. it's a freeware :)
|Mar-01-06|| ||brainzugzwang: My question is: What should Black have done at move 20 instead of castling into it? Black's K-side looks pretty indefensible with the double bishops bearing down on it, but does he have anything at his 20th that might let him hold a grim defense? I mean, this is a 2370 player playing into a fairly obvious and well-known tactical pattern, and even a poor schlub like me was able to spot it right away. What about, say, 20... f5 (allows 21. Bxg7, but what then)?|
|Mar-01-06|| ||al wazir: <patzer2 (and all the rest who replied)>: Thanks. Needless to say, my solution had Bxg7 first. In the game as played by Humpy black has to accept both sacrifices.|
OTB, few players would have found Fritz's saving 22...Be7 and 23...Kh6 or (in the alternate line) 23...Qc7.
|Mar-01-06|| ||thegoodanarchist: Well, I "found" the solution, but does it really count? After all, I would never have gotten it if I hadn't read (numerous times) about the classic double bishop sacrifice. So I must credit Lasker with truly finding it, and I just copied off of him, like a high school student cheating on his homework...|
|Mar-01-06|| ||belka: <brainzugzwang: My question is: What should Black have done at move 20 instead of castling into it? >|
I don't know either, but even giving up the g7 pawn and trying to use the g file would have been better.
It seems that Bc6 is the idea behind Nc6-e5 and Bd7, but at move 20 that's no longer possible. It runs into b5, ripping open the queenside lines (c file and a4-e8 diagonal) while the king is in the center.
Black's opening play is suspect, therefore. Also, you know, if by the 17th move, you've moved your king's bishop 5 times and haven't gotten around to castling, then you've done something wrong. A lot of those moves were forced, but still -- you just can't put your bishop where it will suffer like that.
For instance, 13... Be7 and 16... Qd8 would have put up resistance at the f6 square, opposing White on the long diagonal.
|Mar-01-06|| ||Zplane: What is the typical time for a chess match? Are there 5 minute tournaments?|
|Mar-01-06|| ||dakgootje: Why not 19. ...Qxc8 trying to give the queen some more freedom, and if Rc1 Bc6 or something.|
|Mar-01-06|| ||dzechiel: <Zplane> Five minute tournaments are held all the time. See http://www.zechiel.com/david.html for the results of a couple dozen we have held in the last few years.|
|Mar-01-06|| ||GoldenKnight: <belka: Vukovic recommends (in his book _Art of Attack_) a technique for identifying this and any potential double sacrifice: . . .>|
Excellent post. I was wondering if Vukovic had anything to say on this and was going to look it up tonight. I still will, but you have certainly whetted my appetite. Thanks again.
<Zplane: What is the typical time for a chess match? Are there 5 minute tournaments?>
I have participated in several at the Mechanics' Institute in San Francisco in the '60s. I believe now they are called blitz tournaments, and you can find them, particularly if you belong to a club.
|Mar-01-06|| ||YouRang: <dzechiel> I just had a peek at your site. A very nice double knight sac in that correspondence game you've posted. :)|
It goes nicely with the double bishop sac featured in this game.
|Mar-01-06|| ||alphee: <patzer2:> <However, to get back to <al wazir>'s initial question, reversing the order and capturing with 21. Bxg7? does make a difference, as it throws away a sure win and gives Black practically even chances after the clever 21...Kxg 22. Qg4+! Kh8 23. Bxh7 Qc7! =.> |
True that's what I did and it doesn't work. Shame on me !
|Mar-01-06|| ||alphee: <homersheineken:> one program you can download from the net at [http://www.wmlsoftware.com/] is Chesspad from Mark vand der Leek(freeware, go to Google and just type chesspad or the adress above).
It runs with Crafty 18.10 which you can get from the web too or from ChessBase with version 19.19.
Crafty is a bit more complex to download with all its modules and libraries but a good program ... make sure you download everything. I didn't try to download from Chessbase, may be easier ...
To Crafty, in Chesspad go to Database/Preference/Engine and follow the instructions.
It will accept your games using the sequence: Game/copy as/PGN.
If you have Fritz you can also use Crafty as a kibitzer or to their compare analysis (some times surprising and if you want to know about the differences you can use Modern Chess analysis from Robin Smith - Gambit publishing).
Chesspad will handle big pgn databases and also has its own format to use them when very big. Good stuff,fast to load, do not take much place on the screen and has good search facility for the DB. I use it to store the puzzles when I travel.
On Chesspad site you will also get a good SW to analyse DBs from a positional point of view, more sophisticated than Fritz or ChessBAse but too sophisticated for me.
|Mar-01-06|| ||brainzugzwang: <belka: I don't know either, but even giving up the g7 pawn and trying to use the g file would have been better.>
Well, that's kinda what I was thinking, too. Looking closer, after 20... f5 21.Bxg7 loses a bishop to 21... Rg8 (both B's are attacked); and somewhere down the line, Black could play ...Qc7 to get Her Majesty access to the K-side and help defend the rank laterally. White could answer 20... f5 with 21.g4 to try to blow open the K-side and re-open the bishop's diagonal, but the presence of the White king makes this tricky.|
|Mar-01-06|| ||brainzugzwang: ... or does White immediately play (after 20... f5) 21.Qh5+? ...g6 seems to simply reinforce f5 as a new strong point for Black, even though he is horribly weak on the long diagonal.|
|Mar-01-06|| ||Warrush: I got the move order right but i couldn't see the checkmate.|
|Mar-01-06|| ||drnooo: without a computer, I wonder if there are not plenty of winning either faster or slower combos after the white bishops go. The sac was easy enough as everyone points out from Laskerville, but are the rest of the moves the best???|
|Mar-01-06|| ||homersheineken: <ice lemon tea> and <alphee>
Thank you both!! :)|
|Mar-01-06|| ||MorphyMatt: 2.78859992366222999483777 seconds.|
|Mar-01-06|| ||Sneaky: <ganstaman: Someone had posted to another game with a double bishop sacrifice that they just look for several key positional features in order to know that the sacrifice is probably good (ie you may be able to get away without actually analyzing all the tactics).>|
Yes, that was me, and I'm flattered that you remembered it. I posted it to Miles vs Browne, 1982 (another great ♗♗ sacrifice)
I'll repost it here since it's become topical again:
* * *
Just like Reti said, you really don't need to see a single move ahead! You just check all of the criteria, like a shopping list:
(A) Weakly defended king with no escape on f7/f8. (B) The "Horowitz bishops" pointing at g7/h7. (C) A rook ready to lift in for the fatal check. (D) No good way to block the check. Everything's in the shopping cart, so it's time to ring the register! ca-ching!
|Mar-01-06|| ||dzechiel: <YouRang> Thanks for noticing. I probably had better correspondence games over the years, and shorter games as well, but none that ended quite like that. I couldn't believe that my opponent would take the queen's knight pawn with a queen!|
|Apr-23-06|| ||ganstaman: From my 3/1/06 post: <I started playing the Bird's opening, which can easily get the bishops in place for this sacrifice (something like f4, e3, Bd3, b3, Bb2). So far, no one has given me the opportunity to try it out. I wonder if I'll have the guts to follow through, anyway.>|
Today I was playing some G/5 blitz games. I got tired of other openings and used the Bird (which I had previously given up). One game went something like this (it was a live game, and we didn't record it, this is what I remember of the game):
<I'm white, which is how I can play the Bird...>
1. f4 d6 2. Nf3 Bg4 3. e3 Bxf3 <she said, "we need to get rid of you"> 4. Qxf3 Nc6 5. b3 Nf6 6. Bb2 e6 7. Bd3 Be7 8. O-O O-O 9. Nc3 <I don't remember the next move, possibly this?> a6 10. Ne4 Nxe4
11. Bxe4 d5 <she said "and now we need to get rid of you," you don't understand how happy I was to be 'gotten rid of'> 12. Bxh7+ Kxh7 13. Qh5+ Kg8 14. Bxg7 Kxg7 15. Qg4+ Kh8 <"oh, so you're going to make me run for a minute" -- I replied "hopefully more than a minute"> 16. Rf3 f5 <I wonder if there's anyting better?> 17. Rh3+ Bh4 18. Rxh4+ Qxh4 19. Qxh4+ Kg7 <and the game continued, but I don't remember how. I'm up in material, 2 pawns and a Q against a R and N, but there's still a game to be played, especially given the time controls. Important thing is that I pulled it off without losing :)>
One other important thing -- don't play passively against the Bird. If you're aggressive and still solid, you can likely get an advantage. But if you play passively, sitting back and waiting, the Bird can be deadly.
|Nov-26-11|| ||TheMacMan: there was no mate?? did humpy miss it?|
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