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B I Dikarev vs Roman Pelts
UKR-ch (1964), Kiev, rd 5
Caro-Kann Defense: Karpov Variation (B17)  ·  0-1
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Feb-21-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: <<zooter> wrote: Well, you cannot just play something thinking it will give a draw especially when your king is almost in stalemate position unless off course under time pressure.... :P down a queen I must add...>

<zooter>, in case you missed it, my post gives the correct line. My point was that the position requires care, not the opposite.

Feb-21-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: I caught this one almost immediately-and I even found a trap for white to fall in later:

106 ♕e5+ ♕g7 107 ♕e8+? ♕g8 108 ♕e5+ ♔h7 109 ♕e4+ ♕g6+!! and black turns the tables. Of course after 107 ♕b8+,the other queen is attacked and black must take to stalemate at b8.

It is a stalemate trap and NOT a perpetual check trap.

Alas,in the beginning,white missed the saving clause of 106 ♕e5+ and lost immediately.

Feb-21-08  Magic Castle: <kevin86 "It is a stalemate trap and NOT a perpetual check trap.> Disagree. I saw a perpetual check draw. What if 105. Qe5+ Kh7, and not Qg7, as you would like him to move. What if black will not move any of his queen to cover up any of white queen checks, unless it will be checked on white King? In short 106..Qg7 is not forced. Isnt?
Feb-21-08  Jason Frost: Looked for like 5 minutes last night coulden't find it, looked for like 10 seconds today and found it. Qe5 Qg7 Qb8 or Qe5 Kg8 Qg7
Feb-21-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  SuperPatzer77: <Magic Castle: <kevin86 "It is a stalemate trap and NOT a perpetual check trap."> Disagree. I saw a perpetual check draw. What if 105. Qe5+ Kh7, and not Qg7, as you would like him to move. What if black will not move any of his queen to cover up any of white queen checks, unless it will be checked on white King? In short 106..Qg7 is not forced. Isnt?>

Magic Castle, I completely agree with kevin86 - it is a stalemate trap.

If 106. Qe5+! Kh7, the answer is 107. Qg7+! forcing a stalemate. Of course not, it is not a perpetual check trap. It is impossible to see a perpetual check trap. You must have overlooked this one, Magic Castle.

Feb-21-08  zooter: <johnlspouge: <<zooter> wrote: Well, you cannot just play something thinking it will give a draw especially when your king is almost in stalemate position unless off course under time pressure.... :P down a queen I must add...>

<zooter>, in case you missed it, my post gives the correct line. My point was that the position requires care, not the opposite.>

Off course, my point was not to you, but generally to people who thought any move draws. Again that's human nature and maybe I would have played something similar OTB and lost.

Feb-21-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  BishopofBlunder: <ahmadov: I also managed to figure it out after giving it some consideration but I do not think that I would continue to play OTB in this position... So, this gives more lessons than just finding a solution...>

Agreed. I would have resigned as soon as I realized I couldn't stop black's pawn from queening.

But given time to analyze, I think most good players would see the correct line here. Problem is, by the time move 106 comes around, one is usually quite pressed for time. So I can't blame Dikarev for missing this one.

Feb-21-08  arnaud1959: Karpov variation?? In 1964 Karpov was only 13 years old. Am I missing something?
Feb-21-08  zb2cr: <arnaud1959>,

It wasn't necessarily named the Karpov variation in 1964. NOW, however, it is.

Feb-21-08  wals: Noting think - If it's a case of mind over matter, I don't mind and it doesn't matter.
Look at board
White K Q p v K 2Q's only one move
106. Qe4-h7 + = stalement. no it doesn't because
106....Qb1 x h7 # OK whats the next guess,
106. Qe4-a8+...0Qg1-g8 no I see a better move
106. Qe4-e5+ ...Qg1-g7 107.Qe5-e8+...Qg7-g8
108. Qe8-e5+....Qg8-g7 1/2 1/2
PM =
Dipped out again should have played
106.Qe5+...Qg7 107.Qb8+ stalemate
Feb-21-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  SuperPatzer77: <wals: Noting think - If it's a case of mind over matter, I don't mind and it doesn't matter. Look at board White K Q p v K 2Q's only one move 106. Qe4-h7 + = stalement. no it doesn't because
106....Qb1 x h7 # OK whats the next guess,
106. Qe4-a8+...0Qg1-g8 no I see a better move
106. Qe4-e5+ ...Qg1-g7 107.Qe5-e8+...Qg7-g8
108. Qe8-e5+....Qg8-g7 1/2 1/2
PM =
Dipped out again should have played
106.Qe5+...Qg7 107.Qb8+ stalemate>

wals, you should read kevin86's remark. If 106 Qe4-e5+ Qg1-g7, then 107. Qe5-e8+? (Bad move) Qg7-g8, 108. Qe8-e5+ Kh8-h7! (Winning move)*, 109. Qe5-e7+ Qg8-g7 (no more stalemate threats), 110. Qe7-e4+ Qg7-g6+!! forcing checkmate, 111. Qe4xg6+ Qb1xg6#. You've overlooked 107. Qe5-b8+!!! forcing stalemate. Of course, it is a stalemate trap.

* Note: After 108...Kh8-h7!, 109. Qe5-g7+ Kh7xg7! - no stalemate threats and Black forces White King to move either to g4 or g5. Black turns the tables after 107. Qe5-e8+? Qg7-g8, 108. Qe8-e5+ Kh8-h7! no more stalemate threats against Black.

Feb-21-08  jovack: this puzzle was tricker than first few days but too simple for a thursday i was looking at e8+ initially, because i knew i had to put the queen on g7, and then i realized it only required one slight push haha
Feb-21-08  jazzpawn: Actually, Q-h7 leads to stalemate.
Feb-21-08  jazzpawn: no it doesn't. oh well.
Feb-21-08  Billy Vaughan: Yeah, I immediately tried Qh7 too, but didn't see the Queen there :/
Feb-21-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: Got it. It's mostly a matter of being thorough. Obviously white is playing for a draw, and there are a number of drawing tactics that may come into play:

1. Stalemate: If we can give up our queen while: (a) the black king guards h6 and the queen seals off the g-file, OR (b) the black queen is on g7.

2. Repetition: To avoid stalemate, the king may have to shuffle about on the 7th & 8th ranks as we deliver check, leading to 3-fold repetition.

3. Capture a queen: In some cases, when the g-queen is on g7 and the king on the 8th rank, we can draw with Qb8+!, whereby black captures our queen w/ stalemate, or the king moves to h7 and we take the b1 queen *with check* (important, since otherwise black has ...Qg6#). This results in a theoretical draw.

Nice puzzle.

Feb-21-08  aazqua: The only thing I really hate on this site are pompous jack rabbits like ConstantImprovement who feel they need to give detailed, well formatted, long winded explanations suitable for publication. Just give the simple answer with a simple explanation and stop being such a dork. You're not impressing anyone.
Feb-21-08  newzild: I didn't see the "solution".

I did see 105. Qe8+, which I believe also draws. It's perpetual check unless black interposes a queen. But if 105. Qe8+ Qg8, then 106. Qe5+ Qg7 107. Qxg7+! is stalemate. So black must play his king to h7, in which case 107. Qe7+ Qg7 108. Qxg7+ with stalemate again.

Feb-21-08  newzild: Ooops. I made a mistake. Qxg7 aint stalemate coz the black queen no longer covers the flight squares on the g-file...
Feb-21-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  SuperPatzer77: <newzild: I didn't see the "solution".

I did see 105. Qe8+, which I believe also draws. It's perpetual check unless black interposes a queen. But if 105. Qe8+ Qg8, then 106. Qe5+ Qg7 107. Qxg7+! is stalemate. So black must play his king to h7, in which case 107. Qe7+ Qg7 108. Qxg7+ with stalemate again.>

If 105. Qe8+ Qg8, then 106. Qe5+ Kh7! (winning move), 107. Qe4+ Qg6+!!, 108. Qxg6+ Qxg6#. After 106...Kh7!, 107. Qe7+ Qg7 - no more stalemate threats and no more perpetual checks!!!

No perpetual checks or statemate threats against Black. 105. Qe8+ is a bad move.

Please check on kevin86's remark - It is a clear and excellent analysis by kevin86.

Feb-22-08  gawain: Did anyone replay the game and notice that 93 Qf4?? should have lost immediately to 93... Qe7+

94 Kg4 (forced as 94 Qf6 allows exchange of queens and b-pawn to be queened) 94... b2 95 Qf1 (or Qb8) 95 ...Qxe4+ covering the queening square

Feb-22-08  gawain: But that would have deprived us of a nice puzzle.
Feb-23-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  SuperPatzer77: As you know, 106. Qe8+ is a really bad move because Black has to interpose Black Queen at g8. Then it is no perpetual check trap at all. If 106. Qe8+, Qg8!, 107. Qe5+ Kh7!! leads to no more perpetual checks and no more stalemate threats. I agree on kevin86's remark - it is a stalemate trap and not a perpetual checks trap. If 106. Qe8+??, then 106...Qg8!, 107. Qe5+ (It looks like a perpetual check but...) Kh7!! , 108. Qg7+ Kxg7! -- it is not a stalemate because Black Queen is on the g8 square instead of g1 square!!! It is, of course, very tricky and confusing. See that Black Queen is on the g1 square. If Qe8+ then Black has to interpose Black Queen at g8 (winning position for Black).

Now you better take a look at kevin86's remark. It is not a perpetual check trap. kevin86 is right about the stalemate trap.

Take a look at aazqua's remark - Stop being a dork!!! You take your chess set and chessboard. Then you analyze this queen endgame - White King with a Queen and h-pawn vs Black King with two Queens. You will see a big difference between 106. Qe5+ and 106. Qe8+. I bet my bazookas you will see it very clearly. Well, we better take our hats off to kevin86!!! Kudos to kevin86!!!

SuperPatzer77

Sep-13-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: White must have kicked himself for his missed opportunity against this strong master, whose greatest contribution to the game would be as trainer to numerous GMs.
Sep-20-12  vinidivici: huff. this is hard queen pawns v queen pawns endgame. But pelts managed to win it.
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