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|Sep-04-08|| ||BlackWaive: Thursday.
Candidate Moves: ♖xe6, ♗xh7+, ♗h4, ♕e2
Seems that chessgames.com is back in schedule. After about 5 minutes of searching, I decided upon
13. ♖xe6 ♕xe6 14. ♗xh7+
and after 15. ♕h5 I thought White had a clear win, but apparently Black has the saving move 15...♕h6 which stops the attack entirely.
Eh, I didn't expect White to come out ahead with a mere pawn. Thursday level indeed.
|Sep-04-08|| ||YouRang: As we all know, every puzzle where Bxh7 is an option is a puzzle where Bxh7 must be played.|
So, I started off looking at 13.Bxh7 Kxh7. Now what? I now have 14.Qd3+, which takes me nowhere. I also considered moving the knight to clear the the way for Qh5+, but again, nowhere.
Fortunately, I didn't give up, nor did my faith in Bxh7 waiver (much). About the only other notable thing about the king on h7 is that it is in range of my knight, which isn't very useful at the moment because of the black queen, but can I deflect the queen in some useful way?
That's when 14.Rxe6! (finally) came to mind. It either deflects the queen allowing a royal knight fork, or it wins back a piece with 2 pawns to the good, since the rook itself is forking the Q+N.
Winning 2 pawns (with side benefits: weakening the opposing king's defense and isolating black's d and g pawns) isn't a killer combination, but certainly a very good and probably winning maneuver.
|Sep-04-08|| ||The Rocket: I saw the moves 13 to 15 and didnt calculate further and I dont think you have to... The rook sack I saw instantly.|
pretty long continuation concidering its a medium puzzle sometimes you win in one move and sometimes more so I get confused how long I need to calculate in each puzzle....
moves 13 to 15 should be found by average players in my mind.
|Sep-04-08|| ||zenpharaohs: The Rocket: "moves 13 to 15 should be found by average players in my mind."|
The question being which move you should see for black on move 13. Polgar didn't see that move while he was playing the game, and I think he was an above average player at the time.
|Sep-04-08|| ||kevin86: I missed the key move in this show, 14 Re6!!|
|Sep-04-08|| ||whiteshark: Yah, I can see it, now!
Thursday barrier play a dirty trick on me again.
|Sep-04-08|| ||Woody Wood Pusher: After 13...Kh8 14. Ne4!, dxe4 15.Bxe4, Ndb8 16. Ne5!, Kg8 white seems to have a tangible advantage (+1.5 eval)|
|Sep-04-08|| ||Chesstalesfan: To smile a little. I liked , incidentally, the position of Pinned Piece. Very interesting. Did you notice the "mat etouffe" threatening?
Black has the task now to avoid being mated by 17.Qg8+ Rxg8 18. Nf7 checkmate- What can black play?
16...Nf6, is wrong because the white Queen captures the bishop at c5, threatening several pieces, move to be followed by Nce4...|
|Sep-04-08|| ||The Rocket: "The question being which move you should see for black on move 13. Polgar didn't see that move while he was playing the game, and I think he was an above average player at the time."|
Yes thats right but if black takes the bishop an average player should see 14. rook takes e6. because its a common piece sack were the opponent cant take because of a fork following it...
|Sep-04-08|| ||Marmot PFL: Watson (Play the French) gives 9...Nxf6! Then black can play Bd7 (connecting rooks) and the queen has b6 or e8. Qf6 leads to some tactics, most of them bad for black as in this game.|
|Sep-04-08|| ||VooDooMoves: Hey all. Here is another irrelevant variation: 13.Ne4 dxe4 (13...Qe7 14. Bh4) 14. Bxe4 e5 (to protect the pinned knight) 15. Qd5+ Kh8 16. Qxc6 Qxc6 17. Bxc6 Ra7 18. Bxd7 Rxd7 19. Rxe5 and White wins! I may be the only one (really guys?) that didn't see 13. Bxh7+. For some reason my brain won't allow me to see checks on h7. It's my chess weakness I must admit. Consider this position in which I had white in a recent tourney: |
click for larger view
Here, with 10 minutes left on my clock I played the devastating Rxa5!! Somewhere deep down I feel there was a stronger move for me. Hmmmm...guess I'll never know.
|Sep-04-08|| ||VooDooMoves: To <Chesstalesfan> Actually, 17. Qg8+ doesnt mate because 18. Nf7+ leaves undefended the bishop on h7. Thus, 17. Qg8+ Rxg8 18. Nf7+ Kxh7 19. Nxh6 Kxh6 and it is black who wins :)|
|Sep-04-08|| ||ruzon: I saw 13.Bxh7+ Kxh7 14.Rxe6 but I thought the Queen could retreat only to d8. I forgot the Bishop left the board.|
My question is: isn't 26.Qc6+ much better than Re1? The only way I can see for Black not to drop a piece is 26.Qc6+ Kf7 27.Re1 Qd4+ 28.Kh1 Qa7. Worse for Black is 26.Qc6+ Be6 27.Re1 Qd4+ 28.Kh1 Qd5 29.Rxe6+ Qxe6 30.Qxa8 losing the Bishop.
|Sep-04-08|| ||YouRang: <VooDooMoves: Hey all. Here is another irrelevant variation: 13.Ne4 dxe4 (13...Qe7 14. Bh4) 14. Bxe4 e5 (to protect the pinned knight) 15. Qd5+ Kh8 16. Qxc6 Qxc6 17. Bxc6 Ra7 18. Bxd7 Rxd7 19. Rxe5 and White wins! >|
Well, black has better ways to guard the knight than to play 14...e5 (which allows the white queen to hit d5).
Probably the best move for black at move 14 [diagram] is:
click for larger view
14...Ndb8! 15.Bxb8 <removing the defender> Rxb8 <recapturing and unpinning the knight> 15.Bxc6 <recovering his piece (remember he sac'ed a knight with 13.Ne4)> Qxd2 <and it's a pretty equal game>
|Sep-04-08|| ||TheaN: 4/4
a2, b2, c2, f2, g2, h2, Nc3, Nf3, Bd3, Bg3, Ra1, Re1, Qd1, Kg1
a6, b5, d5, e6, g7, h7, Nc6, Nd7, Bc8, Bc5, Ra8, Rf8, Qf6, Kg8
Candidates: 13.Bxh7†, 13.Bh4, 13.Nxd5, 13.Rxe6, 13.Bxh7†
No, I have not made a typo by posting Bxh7† twice in the candidate list: at first, it didn't lead to anything so I wanted to trap the Black Queen, which failed too. Then, Nxd5 comes to mind: does not work at all. Rxe6 comes close to the idea and gives the impression that that is not the most forcing line. Only after seeing the fork, I went back to:
<13.Bxh7†!> I will NOT vary with 13....Kh8. This loses a pawn for nothing, without a White attack as compensation. Analysing that is like replaying this game with a better move for Black. There are still two replies to look into though.
<13....Kf7> is objectively worse than Kxh7 as it does not capture the piece outright and the Queen has less moves. As:
<14.Rxe6!> is just as effective.
<14....Qxe6 15.Ng5† Ke7 16.Nxe6 if Kxe6 17.Qxd5† >
<14....Kxe6 15.Qxd5† Ke6 16.Re1† Kd8 (Nce5 17.Nxe5 Nxe5 18.Qxc5† ) 17.Bh4 > maybe not as clear as I state here, but I think Rxe6 is playable because of this: in the brackets variation the entire Black camp collapses.
<14....Qd8> opposed to B's Qf5 which is a better square...
<15.Rxc6 > ...it's identical to B's main line in that White wins two pawns.
<13....Kxh7 14.Rxe6!> as stated before, this is a little less tricky AND less vicious as the King is not involved directly.
<14....Qxe6 15.Ng5† Kg6 16.Nxe6 > without the Black King nearby this is just Q for R+B+2P in White's favor.
<14....Qf5> better than d8, see A.
<15.Rxc6 > but the same outcome which is +2P.
<13....Kxh7 > as mentioned.
|Sep-04-08|| ||YouRang: <ruzon><My question is: isn't 26.Qc6+ much better than Re1? The only way I can see for Black not to drop a piece is 26.Qc6+ Kf7 27.Re1 Qd4+ 28.Kh1 Qa7. Worse for Black is 26.Qc6+ Be6 27.Re1 Qd4+ 28.Kh1 Qd5 29.Rxe6+ Qxe6 30.Qxa8 losing the Bishop.>|
Well, by move 26, black is already toast anyway, but I'd probably play 26.Qc6 as you suggest. However, with 26.Re1, white is going after bigger fish with threats to mate or win the queen (e.g. Be5+), and it's arguably better.
|Sep-04-08|| ||zenpharaohs: TheaN: " I will NOT vary with 13....Kh8. This loses a pawn for nothing, without a White attack as compensation. Analysing that is like replaying this game with a better move for Black."|
Of course it is like replaying the game with a better move for black. Because solving the puzzle should not mean hoping for the opponent to make your inferior line look good by blundering. What sort of strategy is that? If you want to count on a blunder, then just move randomly, and when the opponent blunders, then you can feel justified.
It's pointless to consider the game line in this case, when all the success of that line for white is a gift from an inferior move by black.
|Sep-04-08|| ||Slurpeeman: So i guess no one likes 13.R x P?|
|Sep-04-08|| ||DarthStapler: I got the general idea but I missed Rxc6|
|Sep-04-08|| ||VooDooMoves: To<YouRang> 14. Ndb8 was pointed out to me earlier when I posted the variation 13. Ne4 dxe4 14. Bxe4 Bb7 15. Qxd7. That's why I said it was irrelevant :) I just threw it out there for fun ;)|
|Sep-05-08|| ||TheaN: <Of course it is like replaying the game with a better move for black. Because solving the puzzle should not mean hoping for the opponent to make your inferior line look good by blundering. What sort of strategy is that? If you want to count on a blunder, then just move randomly, and when the opponent blunders, then you can feel justified.>|
Have you read my entire post? 13....Kh8 is my final variation (C) (actually, I see now that that HAD to be Kh8 but reads Kxh7), but I have not analysed it, as THAT would be like replaying the game. Without any clear win for White (not from what I've seen, at least) from that move on.
The essential point is that White can win a healthy pawn with 13.Bxh7†. Were Black to go worse with any other variation than 13....Kh8 (which is quite likely just around FM level and below), he wins more. How am I to analyse 13.Bxh7† with 13....Kh8, which is for both the best move with relative small advantage to White? Maybe not a good puzzle, but the puzzlemoves are the ones when Black sidesteps with the capture or to f7, as I've seen before in a CG puzzle.
|Sep-06-08|| ||Kasputin: After a short while, I noticed the following became sequence:|
13. Rxe6 Qxe6
14. Bxh7+ Kxh7
15. Ng5+ - forking the queen and king.
White will have a queen and 2 pawns at the price of a bishop and rook. Also white will be able to trade the e6 knight (after the queen capture) for black's c5 bishop (because of the attack on the f8 rook). Next, it looks like the d5 pawn will fall. In any case, it is quite hopeless for black. (And who knows, perhaps even better opportunities pop up if this line gets played).
Of course, this is not all forced, so working backwards, lets say that black declines the white h7 bishop with:
14 ...Kh7 (the only square as f7 would also lead to a knight fork on the black king and queen).
Now the black queen has the following moves: a) Qh6 b) Qf6 c) Qe7.
15...Qf6 or ...Qe7 allows 16. Qh5 with what looks like a very strong attack (e.g., the bishop can come out with a discovered check to g6).
15 ...Qh6 would seem to invite a move like 16. Qxd5. But then things start to get fuzzy for me. For instance 16 ...Nf6 and it is hard to see what white can do.
Going back even further, it doesn't look like black can decline the initial white rook sac (i.e., 13 Rxe6). Moving the queen away allows white to capture the c6 knight.
So I am betting that 13. Rxe6 is the correct initial move. Perhaps with 15 ...Qh6, white should play 16. Bf4 (instead of Qxd5). This contains the threat of playing Nf7+ with a discovered attack on the queen. Moving the black queen over to f6 again invites the white queen to move to h5. And moving the queen down to h4 looks uncomfortable.
Clearly I am missing something but time to post this (only a day or so late) and then check.
|Sep-06-08|| ||Kasputin: Before pasting my post, I saw that in the game that 13 Bxh7+ was played. But I decided to post what I had anyway - hopefully to help myself understand my flawed logic. Of course I looked initially at 13. Bxh7+ but after thinking about 13. Rxe6, I never really gave much serious thought to reversing the move order. Clearly I should have!|
|Sep-06-08|| ||patzer2: For the Thursday September 4, 2008 puzzle solution, White plays 13. Bxh7+! which sets up 13...Kxh7 14. Rxe6! to win a decisive pawn with a double attack.|
An essential key to solving the combination work is recognizing that 14...Qxe6?? 15. Ng5+ yields a winning Knight Fork (winning the Queen with a fork of Black's King and Queen).
|Jul-17-09|| ||totololo: Is this Polgar the father of the Polgar sisters?|
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