< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Apr-16-09|| ||awfulhangover: This is neither Lucena nor Philidor position. This is the "Rook on long side and King on short side" defence strategy. So 91.-Kh7 92.f7 Rc8 93.Rc8 Ke7 94.Rc7+ and so one.|
|Apr-16-09|| ||aragorn69: Good endgame lesson by <Honza>!|
Kudos also to <Once>, even if less relevant.
|Apr-16-09|| ||cheeseplayer: black plays:
92. Rh3+ Kg6
93. Rg3+ Kh7
white must play another move so doesn't get a draw
94. Rg7+ Kh8
95. Kf7 Rc7+ with repeating checks black forces the white king to surrunder the defence of the pawn and exchanges the rook with rook and then takes the pawn
95.Kf7 Rh1 then followed by Rh6 by black even if white decided to re-check the black king
once the Rh6 arrives there it's a draw..
that's my analysis.. i'm still beginner but that's what i have..
please reply.. let me see what u have
|Apr-16-09|| ||cheeseplayer: sorry i found a solution to the second possibility..|
although it looks manageble i still didnt figure out how to make a draw
please let me what u think though about how to draw this game..
most probably the tactic is to re check the white king till u get him away from protecting the pawn and the black king is near to the pawn..
|Apr-16-09|| ||agb2002: <Patriot: ... 92.Rg7+ Kh8 and a draw by stalemate looms)> I think that now wins 93.Re7, with the plan Kf7-Kf8-f7-Re8 followed by Re7-Ke8 or Rd8-Ke8 or Re4 (threatening mate and the Lucena bridge) depending on the position of the black rook. That's why I preferred 92... Kh6, trying to keep the king close to the white pawn, but perhaps I'm missing something.|
|Apr-16-09|| ||penguin496: Excellent puzzle today for learning rook and pawn vs. rook endgame.|
|Apr-16-09|| ||JG27Pyth: A) I'm going to study the kibitzing for a lesson on this R+P ending|
B) I'm going to ignore the difficulty ratings regarding these Stalemate positions... it's absurd to call this medium if that means (as it means generally) being able to calculate all meaningful variations to a win accurately... IMO If a GM resigns a five piece ending rather than finding a draw -- it's not "medium." No. It's not.
|Apr-16-09|| ||kevin86: I read that this game should be drawn.White has no place to hide from the checks and if he intends to use the rook to interpose,the black king just moves to the g-file.|
This is an exception to Lucena's principle because there is so much space west of the pawn for the rook to annoy with checks.
|Apr-16-09|| ||Jimfromprovidence: This position is a perfect example where the Nalimov table bases can greatly assist in understanding why 91...Kh7 draws and Kh5 or Kh6 do not. The table bases allow you to “walk” through the position ‘til its conclusion.|
Other observations... After 91...Kh7 92 f7, 92…Rc8, below, is the only move that draws. All others lose.
click for larger view
After 91...Kh7 92 f7 Rc8, 93 Rc3, below, is a trap. Only 93… Ra8 or 93…Rb8 draw. All others lose.
click for larger view
|Apr-16-09|| ||YouRang: Well, the stalemate theme this week certainly suggests 91...Kh7, after which a subsequent f8=Q would render the black K immobile. But it's the only logical move anyway, since it must be there to prevent Rg8 tactics and to move toward the pawn if the white rook leaves the g-file.|
After 92.f7, I think it's pretty clear that black must check "horizontally" by moving the rook along the c-file. Checking vertically by moving the rook along the 1st rank eventually runs out of steam when the white king hides at f8 and then plays Rh3+ followed by Kg8.
It's a little trickier if white plays 92.Rg7+, and frankly I couldn't see all the ways it could go from there. I presume black should play 92...Kh6 (rather than 91...Kh8) to avoid mating threats arising from f8=Q#, but beyond that, I don't think I can calculate all the lines we might see.
However it turns out, it can't be any worse for black than resigning! :-)
|Apr-16-09|| ||Patriot: <agb2002: <Patriot: ... 92.Rg7+ Kh8 and a draw by stalemate looms)> I think that now wins 93.Re7, with the plan Kf7-Kf8-f7-Re8 followed by Re7-Ke8 or Rd8-Ke8 or Re4 (threatening mate and the Lucena bridge) depending on the position of the black rook. That's why I preferred 92... Kh6, trying to keep the king close to the white pawn, but perhaps I'm missing something.>|
I think you're right. But I don't think there is a Lucena bridge to be made, because one of the keys to Lucena is that the defender's king is cut off three files away from the pawn.
|Apr-16-09|| ||Eisenheim: Is the stalemate theme this week a product of it being April 15 - tax day? You can never win with taxes, no matter how far you think you are ahead.|
|Apr-16-09|| ||johnlspouge: < <awfulhangover> wrote: This is neither Lucena nor Philidor position. This is the "Rook on long side and King on short side" defence strategy. >|
< <Jimfromprovidence> wrote: This position is a perfect example where the Nalimov table bases can greatly assist in understanding why 91...Kh7 draws and Kh5 or Kh6 do not. The table bases allow you to “walk” through the position ‘til its conclusion. >
Indeed, the exercise was most instructive.
Thanks to both of you.
|Apr-16-09|| ||WhiteRook48: but the puzzle said 91....? not 91 ?|
|Apr-16-09|| ||ChessEscudero: WHITE wins by 91)...Kh5 92)f7...Ra1 93)f8=Q...Ra6+ 94)Ke5...Ra5+ 95)Kd4...Kh4 96)Qf4+...Kh5 97)Kh6Qg4+...Qg6#|
With accurate play, Black draws by 91)...Kh7
|Apr-16-09|| ||RandomVisitor: 90.f7! Re1+ 91.Kf6 Rf1+ 92.Ke7 Re1+ 93.Kf8 Rf1 94.Re3 Kg6 95.Re7 Rg1 96.Ke8 Rb1 97.Re6+ Kg5 98.f8Q Rb8+ 99.Kf7 Rxf8+ 100.Kxf8 wins.|
|Apr-16-09|| ||Pawnage: Yes, I got it right! Resign!|
|Apr-16-09|| ||TheBish: Sax vs Tseshkovsky, 1975|
Black to play (91...?) "Medium" (2.5 stars)
Black is playing for a draw (definitely the theme this week), and he is in check, with only three possible moves (Kh7, Kh6, Kh5).
Since time is running out on this one, I'm going to take an educated guess, and say the answer is probably 91...Kh7!, so that after 92. Rg7+ Kh8! and Black will have many stalemating (or perpetual check) opportunities with his king unable to move, preventing the normal maneuver 93. Kf7 followed by Kf8, f7 and the normal Lucena position maneuver -- look if up if you don't know it!
After 91...Kh7! 92. Kf7, Black should draw easily after 92...Rc7+ followed by subsequent checks on the c-file.
|Apr-17-09|| ||BraveUlysses: A GM resigned this one and prima facie it just "looks" like a lost position for black. Yes, there is a chance of salvaging a draw with 91...h7, i.e white doesn't lose quickly as with other moves and might draw if white plays inaccurately, but a chance of a draw is not a fait accompli draw. Nobody has yet shown that resigning was too pessimistic. I think the GM was correct.|
|Apr-17-09|| ||Once: <BraveUlysses: Nobody has yet shown that resigning was too pessimistic. I think the GM was correct.>|
Huh? As a general rule, rook and pawn endgames are pretty drawish. Lots of chances for book draws - for example, see the posts on the Philidor drawing methods. So unless your opponent has a clear win you ought to play on in the hope of a draw.
<jfp>'s post says that this is a book draw according to the Nalimov tablebases.
In the puzzle position, black has the choice between four possible outcomes. Worst is "resigns", since then he definitely loses. Nearly as bad is 91...Kh5 or 91...Kh6 which several posts have shown lose in fairly short order (but there is just a chance that white will go wrong). Best is 91...Kh7 which leads to a book draw (according to the computers) and a much tougher resistance for humans.
Which is better - a definite loss from "resigns" or the chance of a draw?
The GM was wrong.
|Apr-17-09|| ||patzer2: The solution to the Thursday, April 16, 2009 puzzle solution is 91...Kh7! to secure a table base draw. Instead, in the actual game, the GM missed the stalemate possibility and resigned.|
See the post by <Jimfromprovidence> for an excellent explanation of the ideas behind 91...Kh7!
|Jul-12-10|| ||David2009: Sax vs Tseshkovsky, 1975 shows me how much there is to learn about the endgame.|
Glancing at the final position I thought "1-0 the Lucena win." But not so! As the commentators point out 91 Kh7 holds - because Black has time to check from the side.
What is truly amazing is that Crafty End Game Trainer LOSES this position (starting 91 Rg3+ Kh6??). Try it and see! http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t...
|Jul-13-10|| ||BraveUlysses: <Once>, I get this now.
Thanks for the lessons guys. I learnt a lot on this one|
|Jun-18-14|| ||Howard: Naturally, this game would probably have never received more than a second glance if the late Tseshkovsky had not resigned in a drawn endgame.|
The winner, Sax, would have been 63 today.
|Jun-18-14|| ||Howard: This endgame, by the way, also made the Informant's endgame puzzles section in one of the 1975 volumes.|
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