< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Nov-26-08|| ||The beginner: <jmhobrien>
Also the rh1 Qe7 line is ok for black because he can insert a check in your line a pick up the white queen
Rh1 .. Qe7
Ng6 ??( its not a check but it threatens mate with Rh8 ) Unfortunetly for white his queen is hanging after ..Qxe3+ and Rxg3 Black will win the game.
|Nov-26-08|| ||kevin86: If the king was in the corner,Nxf7+ would be obvious.|
Here,it still is a good move as it roots out the black king.
The final rook move is subtle and easy to miss.
|Nov-26-08|| ||realbrob: Looks like this is the "we're making it tougher than you would expect" week.|
Anyway, I could get the solution because the only first move which really makes sense is Nxf7. Black has to take or lose the rook. If Black takes Qe6+ is obvious. Then you can be a little confused, but after a while, once again, the only possible idea is Rh1 and - surprise! - Black has no serious defense against this.
|Nov-26-08|| ||traction: saw the combination till Kf8...didnt manage to notice Rh1!!|
|Nov-26-08|| ||YouRang: Got this pretty quickly by playing "Follow the forcing moves".|
36.Nxf7 forces ...Kxf7 and then 27.Qe6+ forces ...Kf8.
The only trick is to see what happens next, which isn't much of a trick because there's no move that threatens anything at all except for 28.Rh1, which threatens mate or skewer, and it appears that black can't deal with both threats.
|Nov-26-08|| ||Jack Kerouac: Check THIS out Chess Community:
And don't forget 'On The Road' makes a great stocking-stuffer...
|Nov-26-08|| ||dzechiel: <jmhobrien: Dzechiel and Once, I believe the line 36.Rh1 Qe7 will probably lose to:>|
Good catch! I stand corrected.
|Nov-26-08|| ||Chess Classics: Missed 38. Rh1, glad to know I'm not the only one.
This is probably my not having thought about chess for the better part of a year, but doesn't 36...Re6 save the pawn?
|Nov-26-08|| ||withingrace: i missed rook h1, i considered knight takes pawn, then follow up with the queen, but felt that there was no follow up.|
|Nov-26-08|| ||Oginschile: Funny thing is i looked at Nxf7 followed up by Qe6, but thought there might be something else.|
So i went back and looked at... yup.. Rh1.
I never did put the two ideas together.
|Nov-26-08|| ||patzer2: For today's Wednesday (day before Thanksgiving) puzzle solution, White plays 36. Nxf7! with the devastating follow-up 38. Rh1! in mind to exploit the helpless King position.|
|Nov-26-08|| ||TheTamale: <JackKerouac: "And don't forget 'On The Road' makes a great stocking-stuffer..."|
Yes, it certainly does. But I must confess that 'Dharma Bums' is one of my all-time favorites.
Also, I liked this puzzle. Clever ending.
|Nov-26-08|| ||The beginner: <dzechiel,jmhobrien and Once>|
As i wrote in my earlyer message.
The Rh1 Qe7 line is fine for black
Rh1 ..Qe7 (even Bd5 works, but not Qf6)
Ng6 Qxe3+ with Rxg6 to follow, and white is completely lost.
|Nov-26-08|| ||Once: <futonchild: how do you make other commenters' names appear shaded and within pointy brackets when you reply to them?>|
If you start the text with a "less than" sign and end with a "greater than" sign, then everything between the two will be shaded in red. So when I type < everything that follows will be red until I type >.
Hope that helps!
|Nov-26-08|| ||Once: <The beginner> I think we have all decided that 36. Rh1 doesn't work for white. But let's try to deal with some of the lines that might occur if he did.|
If black responds with 36. Rh1 Bd5? 37. Rd1 pins the bishop and white has a pleasant advantage.
If black plays 36. Rh1 Qe7 then of course white would not throw pieces away with 37. Ng6?. Instead 37. Rh8+ Kxh8 38. Ng6+ Rxg6 39. Qxe7 and we have a tense rook and bishop vs queen position. Fritz slightly prefers white, but it seems fairly level to me.
|Nov-26-08|| ||TheaN: Not really a puzzle worthy position, as there is only one sacrifice to analyze. Still, considering that move altogether in a game, is something completely different.|
White: a3, b2, c2, f3, Ne5, Re1, Qe3, Kc1
Black: a6, b7, f7, g7, Bc6, Rg5, Qd8, Kg8
Material: = (-♗/♘)
Candidates: Nxf7, Nxc6, <[Nxf7]>
Although I did consider Nxc6, I was pretty sure it had to be the Knight sacrifice. Could not get around the acceptation of the sacrifice in the first place, but after you see the Rook lift the entire combination falls into place.
<36.Nxf7!> a somewhat striking sacrifice that was probably not thought by Black on whatever his last move was. I consider it Qd8, because the Rook was attacked by Qe3. Will see that later. Accepting this sacrifice leads to way too hot grounds for Black, and he can't permit it. But a weird exception this puzzle gives: accepting is better than not accepting.
But yeah, what can Black do if he does not accept the sacrifice? Due to the fork, the Rook is suddenly attacked twice, and Black cannot defend it thoroughly or move it, as the Queen is being attacked also. Black cannot sham sacrifice the Rook by attacking White's Queen and taking the Knight afterwards. This would go:
<36....Re5 37.Nxd8 > or maybe Qxe5!? also. This at least rounds up a Rook and loses.
<36....Qe8 37.Nxg5 > but this does as well. Black cannot easily counterattack as the f3♙ and the back rank are well enough defended, and Black will lose a Rook. So he accepts the sacrifice, allowing the e-file battery to work.
<36....Kf7 37.Qe6 Kf8 38.Rh1!> and this simple Rook lift determines Black's fate: Black can avoid the mate on h8 in several ways, anything else that is not addressed below goes mate in one. Not counting the Queen sacrifice Qd1 or Rook sacrifice Rh5, which both allow the same threats with less countering material, obviously.
<38....B/Qd5 39.Rh8 B/Qg8 40.Rxg8 1-0> neither piece works.
<38....g6 39.Rh8 Kg7> "Fair enough, I've stopped the mate..."
<40.Rxd8 > "oh ****".
Now this defense is intriguing, showing that accepting is better in this position than not, at least 3 to 4 ply deep.
<38....Rg1!> and White frowns at least once.
<39.Rxg1 > but lets consider this lost. Without the Rook, White's threats are severe, and Black's Queen is helpless to stop them in the long run. The obvious 39....Bxf3 meets 40.Rf1 with a deadly pin, and Black can get the box for the pieces. Without the pawn capture, Black is KO. I do admit that this might be a complete endgame (haven't looked that far for Wednesday), but with the f7♙ also in the pocket, I doubt it. Also, White is still threatening Rg1-h1-h8, and Black has a hard time keeping it away.
|Nov-26-08|| ||TheaN: 3/3 (100%)
Oh, by the way, variation CC disappeared into thin air >_>.
|Nov-26-08|| ||jmhobrien: The Beginner,
There are no saving checks.
Rh1...Qe7 is fine for black, but not for the reasons you describe. Black captures the white rook, knight and f pawn for his queen. The passed g pawn will probably mean a winning endgame for black.
|Nov-26-08|| ||MiCrooks: I thought this was obvious. The follow up Rh1 threatens mate and wins the Queen at least. Ignoring the Knight just gives White free material.|
|Nov-26-08|| ||mkrk17: I saw Nxf7, then Qe6+, then it took me some 2-3 minutes to find Rh1.|
|Nov-27-08|| ||The beginner: <jmhobrien, Once>
Yes it was not a question if rh1 would work because it dosent. I was just commenting the line jmhobrien made wich was faulty, as it lead to a won game for black
Ng6 (wich jmhobrien marked as a check in his line ( its not a check, but i t threatens chekmate ) only the flaw is white can just capture on e3 with a check and there after pick up the knight on g6.
Also jmhobrien sayd that
Rh1 Qf6 was a won game for for black, it is not its teribel, after
Rh1 .. Qf6 ??
Nxc6 black is completely lost.
Anyway its dosent matter all of this, as the solution to the puzzle is Nxg7 rh1 is a mistake as black has a way to save his queen as already described.
It would be great of people kibitzing on the puzzle would actually take time to read what others have posted instead of just post someting and ignore others post.
|Nov-27-08|| ||James I. in Canada: Pretty simple puzzle. I wasn`t really aware that the theme was a sacrifice when I looked at it, but just looking at the position one could tell that the white knight was crucial in prying the position open. Rybka 3 found the sacrifice when supplied the position several moves before the puzzle starting point, a position shown here:|
click for larger view
Rybka`s analysis (including looking for blunders of greater than 100 "centipawns") ...
34.Nd3 Rg6? (+1.46)
Better is 34...Re6 35.Nxe5 Bxf3 36.g6 Bh5 37.gxf7 ... (+0.37)
35.Nxe5 Rxg5? (+3.75)
A second blunder by Black ... this one quite obvious even to me. Black thinks the Rook is safe because of the covering fire from the Queen on d8, but white`s sac-exchange reply with the knight forks the Queen and the Rook, forcing the King out in the open to take the White Knight, and all but assures the loss of Black`s rook.
Instead of this blunder by Black, Rybka 3 suggests 35...Re6 36.f4 Re8 37. Rd1 Qc8 38.Qd3 Qe6 39. Kb1 ... (+1.46). Black is still in the frying pan, but not so obviously plated up and ready to be served!
Rybka 3 foresees the game might follow as:
36.Nxf7 Kxf7 37.Qe6 Kf8 38.Rh1 Rg1+ 39.Rxg1 Qf6 40.Qxf6+ gxf6 41.Rg3 a5 42.Kd2 Ke7 42.Ke3 (0:00.59) and White has a Rook and a Pawn for Black`s Bishop!
click for larger view
|Nov-28-08|| ||Once: <The beginner: It would be great of people kibitzing on the puzzle would actually take time to read what others have posted instead of just post someting and ignore others post.>|
I totally agree. Let's try to set the record straight ...
Yup: 36. Rh1 Qf6? loses for black, as you have described. Well spotted. Good point. But I am sure that <jmhobrien> would have thanked you if you had pointed it out just once. Repeating the point several times is a little rude. We have got the point.
Yup: 36. Rh1 Qe7 looks fine for black. Well spotted. Good point. But seeing as Dzechiel and I had already said this, why do you need to point it out to us? Or do we need to repeat your point about reading what other people have already posted?
Nope: I don't agree with you that after 36. Rh1 "even Bd5 works". How are you going to respond to 37. Rd1? Fritz 11 reckons that white is winning easily here (over +2).
I don't understand your line which starts: 36. Rh1 Qe7 37. Ng6? Why would white play this clearly losing move? I can't see the point in refuting a line that is unlikely to have been played. Or are you referring to a post that someone made two pages ago? If so, you should make it clear, or better still just let it go.
The general rule on this site is that we all try to get along. This means that we don't make too much of a fuss if someone makes a mistake.
Stay cool, be friendly, have fun.
|Nov-30-08|| ||The beginner: <Once>
well i am not a member of this site to argue with people, my point was just that it would be great of people comenting on the puzzles would bother to read what others have posted.
If you thought I was rude it was not intended, it was just frustrating that people keep posting wrong evaluations. I have been a meber of this site for 4 years, and before that I was lurking for a while. In that time I have never had any conflicts or being acused of being rude by any members here.
My point was that a User posted a a comment that the line Rh1 .. Qe7 was not ok for black as it was losing. It is not as we both can see it is a move wich can save the black Queen. ( you are right that Bd5 is not good enough I was wrong on that move)
Ng6 that user posted this move is a check wich it is not.
in this line black is winning because as we bnoth can see the Queen is hanging with a check.
Of course white is not forced to play Ng6, why would he as it loses instantly as i already posted.
The same user later posted that the line
Rh1 .. Qf6 was a better try for black, but it also loses
With a won game for white.
Anyway i have no interest to argue with you for the sake of arguing, and if you think it is rude to comment on the puzzle, well then what s the point of commenting on the puzzle at all.
|Dec-09-08|| ||patzer of patzers: <sfm>, if you read my first post, disregard it. I just realized you could turn off "show result" in your preferences, and if your game is the only thing you have, besides chess, to do, that's fine by me.|
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