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| Sep-28-06 | | fersonatu: It seems to me that in almost every variation of 12. Be3 we end up planting the queen knight on c3 within a move or two. If one compares with what is being discussed in the forum on 12 Nc3 where the bishop doesn't go to e3 we find that 12 Nc3 can transpose to the 12 Be3 lines but Be3 doesn't transpose the other way. In short ... since 12 Be3 is more commital isn't it inferior to 12 Nc3? (Unless of coarse we plan to execute a plan involving Be3 and Na3 or Nd2 but that doesn't seem to be what is being discussed in that forum.) |
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| Sep-28-06 | | lonepsycho: MyCatPlaysChess, as "N1d2". |
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Sep-28-06
 | | Hesam7: <RandomVisitor: I am sort of disappointed that everyone seems to be going for 12.Be3. One last push for 12.Nc3.> 12.Nc3 is certainly the most flexible move. |
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Sep-28-06
 | | tamar: 12 Nc3 is my choice, for the reasons cited by Hesam 7 and RandomVisitor. 12 Be3 looks flexible, but we will have to play very exactly not to lose the thread if we choose this move. |
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Sep-28-06
| | Hesam7: From <RandomVisitor>'s forum: <27-ply analysis in progress: (<<38.5 hours>>)1. = (0.19): 12.Nc3 0-0 13.Bg5 Re8 14.Rfd1 Qc7 15.Na4 Bd7 16.Nb6 Rab8 17.f4 Nxd3 18.Rxd3 Bc6 2. = (0.20): 12.Bg5 0-0 13.Nc3 Re8 14.Rfd1 Bd7 15.f4 Nc6 16.Qd2 e5 17.f5 Nd4 18.Be3 Nxb3 3. = (0.13): 12.Bh6 Nfg4 13.Bg7 Rg8 14.Bxe5 Nxe5 15.f4 Nxd3 16.Qxd3 Bd7 17.Nc3 Rc8 18.f5 gxf5 4. = (0.12): 12.Be3 0-0 13.Nc3 Bd7 14.f4 Nxd3 15.cxd3 Bc6 16.Nd4 Rc8 17.Nxc6 Rxc6 18.Bb6 Qd7 19.f5 > |
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| Sep-29-06 | | monad: <Marvol: >
By the time we reach move 29 (if we ever do:-), we will have a good working method of labour division and cooperation sorted within Team White. Well, maybe. Anyway, give me a pgn with your verbal input on a line, any line, and I'll put it onto a board. But if you put in commentary, test it on your chess programme, as I don't have time to doctor the pgn. I find it impossible to glean anything from all the verbal analysis that has got itself embedded in the main page. 48 hours per move just isn't enough for anything other than snappy summings up. The long lines from our engines that some disagree with, are there to work on, not the final product, and obviously they need refining. But that needs input from others like yourselves, to put it into .pgn files, so I can make it visible for people to see at a glance. |
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| Sep-29-06 | | chessmoron: <RV>'s Rybka Analysis: <12.Nc3 (and 12.Bg5) +0.20
12.Bh6 +0.13
12.Be3 +0.12<<<<<<<>>>>>>>> We are losing 0.08 pts. We need to go up not down.
COME ON GUYS VOTE FOR Nc3!! |
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| Sep-29-06 | | Wassily: <chessmoron> Instead of relying on some insignificant difference in the chess engine evaluation, why don't you share some of your insight into the superiority of the move? |
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| Sep-29-06 | | monad: <Hesam7: >
Good line, that number 2 in RV's 'Hi Ply' engine analysis, with 12.Bg5!!
Coming top by a slender margin.
But then, the lines are all so close.
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| Sep-29-06 | | Wassily: <fersonatu>, <tamar>, <Hesam7>: Nc3 can also be viewed as inflexible, as N1d2 might be where we want the knight. (In fact, I believe that is where we want it). Besides connecting the knights and mobilizing toward Black's kingside, Thorsson has mentioned some additional reasons why Nc3 may be inferior: 1. Black's King is not going to remain in the centre if we play Nc3. There won't be any tactical shots on d5. 2. The point of Nd2-c4 is that Black either exchanges on c4, turning our bad Bishop to good, or he exchanges on d3, leaving us a Knight on c4 that is hitting b6, d6 and e5, as well as being able to redeploy to e3, where it controls d5 and f5 and can move to g4, hitting the weak Black squares. 3. Where does the N on c3 go? Not to a4 because after Bd7 the Bishop can take it. Not to e4 because of our pawn. Not to b5 or d5 because we can lose it. And not to e2 because our Queen is there. It is therefore an immobile and inflexible piece. 4. It does prevent Bb5, but this can also be achieved by c4 or Nd4, or even ignoring it in some positions. It does not prevent d5 for much longer. Do we really, therefore, want to leave it on c3? So in fact, Be3 is the more flexible move, and prepares N1d2. |
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Sep-29-06
| | Hesam7: <Wassily: <chessmoron> Instead of relying on some insignificant difference in the chess engine evaluation, why don't you share some of your insight into the superiority of the move?> It looks like that our main options are not that different but the plus side of 12. Nc3 is hiding our plans for the c1 bishop. This argument works against 12. Bg5 and 12. Be3 but not for 12. Bh6, which was my initial choice actually, as one could argue that by playing 12. Nc3 we lose the oppurtunity to play Bh6 with its full effect. But then you look at several continuations which are posted in your own forum and I personally did not like the outcome. |
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| Sep-29-06 | | Wassily: <Hesam7> Yes, I think we have shown that Bh6 is not our best bet (I'll be posting a summary tomorrow). However, your logic applies to the Nb1 as well: We may want to mask our intentions as regards that piece as well. Moreover, many of us have been looking at N1d2, as I mentioned. This move has many relative strengths compared to Nc3 (see previous). Be3 does prepare the d2 square for occupation by the knight (as otherwise this would block in the bishop). |
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| Sep-29-06 | | capatal: capatal: 12.Bg5 and 12.Nc3 <RandomVisitor> and <monad>... after reviewing your lines appear very promising - pity
we are pursuing the minority
vote with these industrial strength
moves at the moment, with 12.Nc3 having the best chance to immediately implement. |
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Sep-29-06
 | | Tomlinsky: It's interesting that if you look at the first two main lines Rybka gives... 1. = (0.19): 12.Nc3 0-0 13.Bg5 Re8 14.Rfd1 Qc7 15.Na4 Bd7 16.Nb6 Rab8 17.f4 Nxd3 18.Rxd3 Bc6 2. = (0.20): 12.Bg5 0-0 13.Nc3 Re8 14.Rfd1 Bd7 15.f4 Nc6 16.Qd2 e5 17.f5 Nd4 18.Be3 Nxb3 ... on move 14 for black it then evaluates the exact same transposed position and comes up with two completely different moves for black and consequently different 'plans' white. One starting with 15...Na4 queen side, the other with 15...f4 king side. It's giving different 'best' moves for black in the exact same position which invalidates either or both of the moves it's recommending in the first place as far as I can see. It's certainly not backing them up with variations that make any sense positionally in this case. So as far as a long term strategy for the position goes the moves it 'recommends' don't mean a thing really do they? It's clueless as to what the correct overall strategy for the position is. The exact same position, two totally different ways to proceed and no overall cohesion to the variations to insinuate that the moves it says are 'best' have much to do with anything really. |
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Sep-29-06
 | | Sneaky: <chessmoron: Rybka Analysis: ... We are losing 0.08 pts. We need to go up not down. COME ON GUYS VOTE FOR Nc3!!> You are of course joking, aren't you? |
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| Sep-29-06 | | Thorsson: Anyone who thinks that Bg5 is the best move because Rybka, left to its own devices, says it's 0.01 better than Nc3 or 0.07 better than Be3 is badly misled. The engines just can't see far enough into the future at this point, and there are few tactics. Better to rely on human understanding and concrete plans. Anyone who douubts this just has to look at the Bg5 and Nc3 lines of Rybka. After 4 moves they have completely transposed, yet by 6 moves they have diverged again and we end up with a different "score". |
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| Sep-29-06 | | Thorsson: LOL. While I was writing my last message, trying to keep it as short as possible, Tomlinsky beat me to the punch. If he and I agree on something it must be true folks! |
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| Sep-29-06 | | TrueFiendish: Yeah, I put in my plea for Nc3.
Hey everyone: NC3 NC3 NC3!!!! |
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| Sep-29-06 | | lvlaple: What a joke. Half you guys, sorry to those of you who are, aren't even playing this game. You are just punching letters and numbers into a computer and seeing what it spits out. I sincerely hope you are having fun. Anyway, Be3 and all that jazz, Na3 (or Nd2) to come. |
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| Sep-29-06 | | lvlaple: I hope he trades that knight, we're way up in my opinion if he does. Oh, and thank you to AN for taking Black. I don't know if it was random or if he volunteered but, what a guy either way. |
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| Sep-29-06 | | Thorsson: <TrueFiendish: Yeah, I put in my plea for Nc3. Hey everyone: NC3 NC3 NC3!!!!>
People, we have our first Chess Cheerleader!
[sarcasm]And I, for one, find the arguments so convincing I'm changing my vote now.[/sarcasm] |
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Sep-29-06
 | | OhioChessFan: <This is an automated posting. I've set up a bot to make it six times today at four hour intervals.> <Brent Baccala> Are you the same guy with the bot making a post every 6 hours asking "What's wrong with Bh6?" Sorry, I couldn't resist. :) |
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| Sep-29-06 | | Thorsson: Shame we can't have some side polls. It would be interesting to know how many people in the team believe we are going to smash through the K-side in this game and crush GMAN. I'm guessing that all those voting Bh6 & Bg5 at this point think this will happen. Does anybody else? I say the above, because if you believe we will get to an ending you shouldn't be so keen to exchange our QB. Why? Because the pawn a5 is a weakness (which is why I didn't want to play it originally). It cannot be decently defended by pawns (b4 just makes two pawns weak), a Knight would be tied down, and Rooks belong on open or semi-open files. The B, however, can protect the pawn while still doing a useful job. |
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| Sep-29-06 | | babywizard: 12.Be3 does not seem to achieve much. It is better to try and get the knight to b6 instead of the bishop. |
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| Sep-29-06 | | Thorsson: <tamar: 12 Nc3 is my choice, for the reasons cited by Hesam 7 and RandomVisitor.> From what I can see that reason appears to be, "Because Rybka says so". It might be worth repeating here that GMAN has a lot of experience in playing, and beating, computers at CC. If we simply follow Rybka we are likely to lose. |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 330 OF 1066 ·
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