< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 19 OF 838 ·
|Jan-13-07|| ||Rubenus: <The Chess Express> I use it only on playchess.com or in casual games.
White wins more games than black does according to the Opening Explorer.|
|Jan-13-07|| ||Eyal: <White wins more games than black does according to the Opening Explorer.> That's true about all (major) openings, I'm afraid.|
|Jan-13-07|| ||Boomie: Let's stop complaining to CG about the secret ballot. It's an experiment. Accept it as a challenge. Find ways to overcome its problems. Perhaps set up a voting forum to keep a rough count. There are also good things about it, for example the excitement building up to a move. Also the analysts will have to be expecially persuasive to prevent any blunders. Any good analyst will welcome the motivation to improve. In short find positive ways to deal with this change. Just stop whining about it.|
|Jan-13-07|| ||Sneaky: Eyal it's not very clear to me that White is better in either of those lines you provided, but if they do represent problems then we'll just have to go another way. You make it sound like its an opening which is easily refuted by some very simple manuveurs and yet strong correspondence players use it all the time to win from the Black side. You can beat on it all you want, but it's like a tenacious garden weed that just won't die.|
Even if the lines I provided have problems with them there are a hundred other ways to play it. I for one am not afraid to play it like a real gambit with ...f6, e.g. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.g3 f6
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We are following E Gigerl vs F Cirabisi, 1988.
6.exf6 Nxf6 7.Bg2 Bf5 8.O-O Qd7 9.a3 Bh3 10.Nbd2 h5 11.Re1 <11.b4 h4 12.b5 Ne7 13.Ne5 Qc8 14.Bxh3 Qxh3 15.Ndf3 hxg3 16.fxg3 Nf5 might have been better, but it is evident that Black has a very dangerous attack. > 11...Bxg2 12.Kxg2 h4! 13.e3 d3!! <The d-pawn is a bone in White’s throat – a theme underpinning the whole opening. > 14.Nxh4 g5 15.Nhf3 Qh3+ 16.Kg1 g4 17.Nh4 Ne5!
click for larger view
18.f4 Rxh4! <Doesn’t matter.> 19.gxh4 Nf3+ 20.Nxf3 gxf3 21.Qd2 Ne4! 0-1. <For me a beautiful final position. Love it!>
(comments in gold text are by Andrew Martin from 'The X-Rated Albin' - http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_b... -- for those who want a good feel for this opening that's a delightful read)
|Jan-13-07|| ||Sneaky: <Morozevich prefers Nge7 and has had great success with it.> Yes that's a big topic these days and if we actually play the Albin we'll have to examine that in more depth. I've never personally checked it out but if Morozevich plays it, it must be good.|
|Jan-13-07|| ||Sneaky: You know, if it wasn't for the secret ballot we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion? We'd probably just see that 1...d5 is losing by 300 votes and realize that all debate is futile.|
|Jan-13-07|| ||francescog: Since I was already thinking of learning the Albin CG, Sneaky's proposal is ok for me :-) I'll try to be more active in this game than in the previous one (don't know if this is more harmful or helpful... ) rather than just "looking at the forums and then voting" :-)
|Jan-13-07|| ||Eyal: <We'd probably just see that 1...d5 is losing by 300 votes and realize that all debate is futile.> Or winning by 300 votes, and then we would really be at each other's throats...|
|Jan-13-07|| ||francescog: <sneaky> I don't understand the point of secret voting, too...
It seems to me that we shouldn't have secrets among us :-)
<chessgames> wouldn't it be possible to revert it? is yours an irreversibile decision? could you point me to the message where you explain this new "feature"?|
|Jan-13-07|| ||Tabanus: All right, let's kick some ass. I love the French but suggests 1...Nf6 to avoid this and the Albin. After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 I suspect 5.a3 is too good, and in the game J Chvojka vs J Cervenka, 1994 white could have tried 5...Bg4 6.Qb3. The King's Indian would be learning, and the CC score for it does not look too bad either. Another question is how to have a good division of labour, now that the secret ballot deprives us of this bit of information.|
|Jan-13-07|| ||Thorsson: <The Chess Express: Sneaky, I'm a big fan of the Albin Counter Gambit. Alexander Morozevich (who incidentally is my favorite chess player) has beaten several 2700 players with it. After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5!? 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.g3 Morozevich prefers Nge7 and has had great success with it.>|
A fine example of how (part of) the truth can be terribly misleading.
Morozevich has beaten two 2700+ players with it, Gelfand and Topalov. These victories were both at the Amber tournament 2005, where games are either Rapid or Blindfold. He also lost to Van Wely (2617) in the same tournament. He beat Khenkin (2610) in the Mainz Rapid later that year. His one victory over 2500+ opposition at "normal" Chess was over Ivan Sokolov at Corus in January 2005. He doesn't appear to have played it at all since the Khenkin game.
|Jan-13-07|| ||Sneaky: For those who are voting or advocating ...Nf6, I want to know: what's your plan? |
I wouldn't mind playing 1...Nf6 if we were mostly in agreement over where to go next. If the plan was to play ...Nf6 with a Benoni, or a Grunfeld, then I'd be OK with that. I just don't like this attitude of "let's just plop the knight out there, and worry about what opening to play later."
I'm playing 1...d5 hoping for an Albin countergambit but equally happy with a Semi-Slav, and a (semi)-Tarrasch would be my 3rd pick.
|Jan-13-07|| ||Thorsson: By the way, there was a similar debate on TCCMB (the unofficial ICCF message board) a couple of years ago. The US Chess Expert Dave Taylor took on a team of of Albin lovers and calmly took them into a winning "good N v bad B" ending. There has been no talk of the Albin being a good CC opening since.|
|Jan-13-07|| ||Eyal: <Tabanus: Another question is how to have a good division of labour, now that the secret ballot deprives us of this bit of information.> From my experience at Chessgames Challenge: Team White vs Team Black, 2006, you can usually tell from the postings which moves are the strong candidates; however, the number of participants in that game is much smaller, so it would probably be a less reliable indication in the present game.|
|Jan-13-07|| ||Thorsson: <Sneaky: For those who are voting or advocating ...Nf6, I want to know: what's your plan?>|
Indeed. From what I can see the beginning of all RoW follows the pattern of each move being decided on an individual basis. Who actually plays a Chess game that way? In CC, especially if you have some knowledge of what your opponent likes to play, it makes sense to plan your opening.
A quick study of Shulman's games shows that he invariably chooses the same set up with White against the Nimzo (4.e3 and 5.Nge2) regardless of what Black plays.
Normally I would play 4...0-0, but knowing we are going to face Nge2, 4...b6 is interesting, expecially as he was unable to beat the much lower rated B Smith at last year's World Open after 5...Ba6, which would be my choice anyway.
After 6.a3 Black has the choice between the solid 6...Bxc3+ as played by Smith, or the more enterprising 6...Be7.
|Jan-13-07|| ||chessgames.com: <<chessgames> wouldn't it be possible to revert it? is yours an irreversibile decision?> This new feature has been installed due to the insistence of a number of users regarding perceived problems with open voting. You see, during the Nickel game so many people believed that open voting was a disaster that they made a petition, mostly spearheaded by prominent users such as twinlark, Domdaniel, and OhioChessFan. We were asked to change the system the middle of the game, abandoning open-voting forever. We regarded the changing of rules in the middle of a game as unprofessional, so we refused, but we did agree to let them have a game with closed voting as an experiment. This is that game. |
We even discussed the matter with GM Shulman, and his opinion was that closed voting would make it a more educational experience for the World Team. Maybe he's right; I guess we'll find out in the months to come.
To be perfectly clear: THE VOTING PROTOCOL WILL NOT BE CHANGED FOR THE DURATION OF THIS GAME. The debate is over and the decision is final. The topic will be re-opened for debate in a few months, when the next Chessgames Challenge starts, which probably will be the Arno Nickel rematch later in the year.
<could you point me to the message where you explain this new "feature"?> See Chessgames Challenge Help under "WHAT IS OPEN/CLOSED VOTING?"
|Jan-13-07|| ||Silverstrike: <Sneaky, and all> Im all for playing the Albin Counter Gambit whenever and wherever! |
The ...Bf5 move isn't based on the c2 square, but it's an annoying enough motif to cut down on alot of whites usual systems.
White can attack on the Queenside, with a4, b4, Qa4 targetting the a-pawn etc, but it's often not as dangerous as it looks, one can often sacrifice the pawn on a7 after b5 with ...Nb8 and white takes a while to get his attack back on, while black has all kinds of channels of aggression down the Kingside.
White's motif of e6 after ...Bh3, for example 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.g3 Bf5 6.Bg2 Qd7 7.0-0 0-0-0 8. a3 Bh3 9.e6, winning a tempo for white, can be rather annoying, and can also be used for later, but 8...f6 trades of the dangerous pawn as well as developing the g8 knight to f6 if white takes.
Another fact is statistically, it is the opening with the lowest number of draws after 2.c4, with only 19.1% , and the highest number of wins for black against 2.c4 with 33.2%. White has the higher number of wins, with 47.8%, but this is not unexpected, and it is a much closer ratio of white wins to black wins, 47.8%: 33.2%, than say the Queens Gambit Declined, which is 40.2%:20.8%, with white winning almost twice as much as black.
Of course, the Albin Counter Gambit isn't invincible, but it should have a strong case for being played, and I support it.
|Jan-13-07|| ||whiteshark: <<Thorsson:> <By the way, there was a similar debate on TCCMB (the unofficial ICCF message board) a couple of years ago. The US Chess Expert Dave Taylor took on a <team of of Albin lovers> and calmly took them into a winning "good N v bad B" ending. There has been no talk of the Albin being a good CC opening since.>>|
|Jan-13-07|| ||Solid DD: Hello everyone. I'm kind of new here so this'll be my first CC game. I vote for 1... Nf6 and aim for a NID/KID/GID. If he avoid the nimzo with Nf3, maybe we can play a benoni.|
|Jan-13-07|| ||The Chess Express: <We even discussed the matter with GM Shulman, and his opinion was that closed voting would make it a more educational experience for the World Team.>|
Yes, I agree. We all learn a lot more from our losses than our wins LOL
|Jan-13-07|| ||Sneaky: <whiteshark> At the very most, that game is a blow to the seldom seen 5...Be6 variation. I'm not even sure it's that--I don't think Black did too bad in the opening!|
|Jan-13-07|| ||MrPatzer: I know not what others do, but it's 1...d5 for me.|
|Jan-13-07|| ||azaris: <We even discussed the matter with GM Shulman, and his opinion was that closed voting would make it a more educational experience for the World Team.>|
Since were making suggestions about the way our opponents should play, I think playing the whole game as kriegspiel would make it a more educational experience for GMYS.
The World should of course see all the moves thank you very much.
|Jan-13-07|| ||Thorsson: <Sneaky: <whiteshark> At the very most, that game is a blow to the seldom seen 5...Be6 variation. I'm not even sure it's that--I don't think Black did too bad in the opening!>|
Actually Black did very similar out of the opening to GMAN - always one move away from getting an OK game. I followed the game closely at the time and it was clear that White always stood better.
|Jan-13-07|| ||Elixir of Life: <MrPatzer> Welcome to our club!|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 19 OF 838 ·