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| May-08-07 | | Artar1: <chancho: I switched my vote to 33...Be6 for the poll.> I'm curious as to why? |
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| May-08-07 | | Artar1: <Dionyseus: <Boomie> <Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 33...Be6 winning in all variations tested? > As far as I know that's the case. 33...Be6 is so strong we're even finding more ways to win with it.> If that's true, then why has Hugin, the author of the variation, dropped it like a bad habit? |
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| May-08-07 | | Dionyseus: <If that's true, then why has Hugin, the author of the variation, dropped it like a bad habit? > I don't know what his variation is, but from my analysis and the analysis I've seen of a few others, I'm convinced 33...Be6 kills white the fastest. |
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| May-08-07 | | Artar1: Dionyseus: <Boomie> <Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 33...Be6 winning in all variations tested? > NO!
Here's two ways that Black doesn't get much for his troubles. So it's not winning in every single variation. In the first example, Black has an advantage, but is it enough for a win? Maybe more work is needed? <33...Be6 34. axb6 axb6 35. h3 Rc4> a) 33.a5 Be6 34.axb6 axb6 35.h3 Rc4 36.b5 h6 37.Rg4 h5 38.Re4 Rb4 39.Bxd4 Nxd4 40.Qd3 Kf7 41.Rxd4 Rb1+ 42.Kh2 Qxe5+ 43.f4 Qxb5 44.Qxb5 Rxb5 (Black is a pawn up and has a small advantage.) b) 33.a5 Be6 34.axb6 axb6 35.h3 Rc4 36.b5 h6 37.Rg4 Rc2 38.Rf4 Qxf4 39.Qxc2 Qxe5 40.Qc6 Bf7 41.Qa8+ Kh7 42.Qe4+ Qxe4 43.Bxe4+ g6 44.Bc2 Nd2 45.Bd3 Nf3+ 46.Kf1 Ne5 47.Ke2 Be8 48.Bxd4 Nxd3 49.Kxd3 Bxb5+ 50.Ke3 Bd7 51.Bxb6 Bxh3 52.Kf3 Bf5 (This position has draw written all over it.) Are we starting to get sloppy or careless?
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| May-08-07 | | Dionyseus: <Artar1> <33...Be6 34. axb6 axb6 35. h3 Rc4> 35...Rf8 is much stronger from what I've seen. |
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May-08-07
 | | chancho: <Artar1> 33...Rf8 34.f4 How do we proceed from that position? Indeed, <Hugin> switched from 33...Be6 to 33...Rf8, so there must be a reason why he did it. (as you hinted) Plenty of time to look at the variations so If need be I'll switch my vote again. It pays to be a flip flopper in this game. lol |
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May-08-07
 | | Gypsy: Alright, I will make a pretty strange plea to the team for choosing now the <33...Rf8> move. I will make an aesthetic case, but I am about ~80% serious. (Of course, I dare to go that way only because both, 33...Rf8 and 33...Be6, are about equivalent and near winning moves in the abstract sense. And because the data at <RV>'s even seem to give an ever so slight edge to Rf8.) But humor me for now, and think of how this game evolved: Go to the <review game> feature and, while playing the moves, think of all our torment and agony selecting each move that we have made. Observe that two themes stand out more pivotal than all the others. Observe that in fact, we have eschewed many an attractive line and subjugated our play to these two themes. And by playing so consistently throughout, we now have a chance to create something that Botvinnik used to term a <complete game>. One on the two central themes comes from the play and pressure of our Nimzowich QID bishop along the a6-f1 diagonal. But it is the other theme, that really is the true leitmotiv of our game: It is the way we have consistently exploited given opportunities to barrel down the f-file! Remember 12...f5, 17...f4, 25...Qf7, 26...Qxf4, 27...Qf7, and 32...Qf5! These are the moves that are turning this game into a theoretical milestone. But, the moves in their totality -- because of their thematic consistency -- also leave a fine artistic impression. It all comes out when the game is played through at one sitting. Clearly you see now why I believe that we need to continue <33...Rf8>! (Off my soap box now.) |
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| May-08-07 | | izimbra: I'm voting for axb5 so far. White seems likely to draw in some of the Rf8 lines and I'm not seeing why 33...Be6 34. axb6 axb6 is as good for black as 33...bxa5 34. bxa5 Be6. |
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May-08-07
| | chancho: 33...Rf8 34.f4 g5? (yes, it's anti positional, and it looks like suicide) |
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| May-08-07 | | Dionyseus: 33.a5 <Be6> 34.axb6 axb6 35.h3 <Rf8> 36.Kh2 Bd5 37. Rg4 Qxf2 38. Bxd4 Nxd4 39. Qxd4 Bxg2 40. Qxf2 Rxf2 41. Rxg2 Rxg2+ 42. Kxg2 Kf7 43. Kg3 g5 44. Kf3 b5 45. Ke3 Ke6 46. Kd4 h6 47.Ke4 0-1 So far I haven't found a way to save white yet in this line. I'll keep working on it. |
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May-09-07
 | | kwgurge: <chancho> 33...Rf8 34.f4 <Qe6> |
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| May-09-07 | | Dionyseus: 33.a5 <Be6> 34.axb6 axb6 35.h3 <Rf8> <36.Kh1> doesn't save white either. 36...Rd8 37. Kg1 d3 38. Re3 d2 39.Rxb3 Bxb3 40. Qxb3+ Qf7 41. Qd1 Qa2 42. Bc3 Rd3 43. Bxd2 Qxd2 44. Qg4 Qd1+ 45.Kh2 Qxg4 46. hxg4 g5 47. Bb7 Rd4 48. Kg3 Rxb4 49. Kf3 Kf7 50. Bc8 Rf4+ 51. Ke3b5 52. f3 b4 53. Kd2 Rxf3 54. Ke2 Rc3 55. Bf5 b3 56. Bxh7 b2 57. Bf5 Rc1 58.e6+ Ke7 59. Bd3 b1=Q 60. Bxb1 Rxb1 61. Kd2 Kxe6 62. Kc2 Rg1 63. Kd2 Rxg4 64.Ke2 Rd4 65. Kf2 g4 66. Ke2 Ke5 67. Kf1 g3 68. Ke1 Ke4 69. Ke2 Rd3 70. Kf1 Kf3 71. Ke1 Rd4 72. Kf1 Rd1# |
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| May-09-07 | | lonepsycho: <benjinathan> Tentatively voting for 33. ...  e6 (until I look further into 33. ...  f8 lines).(33. ... f8 just seems like a wasted tempo after 34. xd4 d8, and Shredder likes 33. ... e6 better after 18 plies.) |
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May-09-07
 | | GoldenKnight: I am running Rybka on 33...f8 and it looks really good so far, I do think a little better than the <Tef> or <Hugin> lines. It ties White up completely in knots, but it's very subtle. I do *not* recommend 16-ply sliding analysis on this -- you simply will not come to the truth on this with that. When Rybka got to 16 ply, the top line was 34.Bxd4 at -0.22 (=). Now at 20 ply it is the fourth line at -1.02 (  ), and the top line is now 34.f4 at -0.66 (  ) in an improved version of the <Hugin> and <Tef> lines. That's probably why <Hugin> is switching already. I completely understand.(I have been suspicious of 16-ply sliding analysis for some time now as I have discerned that Rybka does not really begin to get at the "truth" of a position until around 21 - 24 ply.) It does not look like the moves being suggested here in that line are optimal. As said, I am at 20 ply now, and will post tomorrow morning. <Artar1> In your 33...Be6 line, I don't think 35...Rc4 is the best. It looks like it transposes (without 35...Rc4) into my (<Tef>'s) line which I posted and annotated earlier today. |
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| May-09-07 | | izimbra: Can anyone advocating Rf8 find a winning line for black after 33...Rf8 34.f4 Qe6 35.axb6 axb6 36 Bxd4 Rd8 37 Kh1 ? |
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| May-09-07 | | Dionyseus: 33.a5 <Be6> 34.axb6 axb6 35.h3 <Rf8> <36.f3> doesn't save white either. 36...Rd8 37.Qd3 Bd5 38.f4 Kf8 39. Re3 Qxd3 40.Rxd3 Bc4 41. Rd1 Be2 42. Rb1 d3 43. Bc3 d2 44. Bxd2 Nxd2 45. Rc1 Nc4 46. Kf2 Bd3 47. Bf1 Bxf1 48. Rxf1 Rd4 49. Kf3 b5 50. Rc1 g5 51. fxg5 Nxe5+ 52. Kg3 Rxb4 53. Rc7 Nf7 54. h4 Re4 55. Rb7 b4 56. Rb5 Rc4 57. h5 Nd6 58. Rb8+ Ke7 59. g6 hxg6 60. hxg6 Kf6 61. Rb6 Rd4 62. Kf2 Kg7 63. Ke2 Nf5 64. Kf3 Kh6 65. Ke2 Ne7 66. Rb7 Nxg6
click for larger view
and according to the Shredder endgame tablebase database this is a forced mate in 28 moves. |
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| May-09-07 | | izimbra: <I'm not seeing why 33...Be6 34. axb6 axb6 is as good for black as 33...bxa5 34. bxa5 Be6.> To answer my own question, it seems that Be6 does win faster because white is in Zugswang after 33...Be6 34. axb6 axb6. In particular, 35. Ba3 is refuted by 35....Ra8. Changed my vote to Be6.
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| May-09-07 | | benigno: <izimbra: Can anyone advocating Rf8 find a winning line for black after 33...Rf8 34.f4 Qe6 35.axb6 axb6 36 Bxd4 Rd8 37 Kh1 ?>
Intrigued by the Rf8 line, but worried by 36 Bxd4, I autoplayed from 35... axb6 on HIARCS 11.1 SP and white was about -3 after 15 moves or so, and the end came quickly. (At about 18 ply my lite version of HIARCS couldn't see anything better for white than 36 Bxd4.) |
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May-09-07
| | GoldenKnight: <izimbra: Can anyone advocating Rf8 find a winning line for black after 33...Rf8 34.f4 Qe6 35.axb6 axb6 36 Bxd4 Rd8 37 Kh1 ?> 37...Bd5. But why 34...Qe6? This move gives up some of White's spatial advantage. At 21 ply Rybka is currently recommending 34...bxa5. My suggested move above, ...Bd5 is much stronger with the queen still on f5, as happens in one of the main variations of <Tef>'s 33...Be6 line. |
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May-09-07
| | GoldenKnight: I meant above that it gives up some of *Black's* spatial advantage. Anyway, I think we have a number of ways to win. |
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| May-09-07 | | sebakaw: Analysis by Deep Shredder 10 UCI:
DEPTH=25
1. (-1.39): 33...bxa5 34.bxa5 Rd8 35.a6 Bd5 36.Rh4 Qg5 37.Rg4 Qxe5 38.Bxd5+ Qxd5 39.Qe1 Rf8 40.Ba3 2. (-1.17): 33...Be6 34.axb6 axb6 35.h4 b5 36.Qf3 Qxf3 37.Bxf3 Nd2 38.Rf4 d3 39.Bd1 Nc4 40.Bb3 d2 41.Rd4 |
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| May-09-07 | | izimbra: <izimbra: Can anyone advocating Rf8 find a winning line for black after 33...Rf8 34.f4 Qe6 35.axb6 axb6 36 Bxd4 Rd8 37 Kh1 ?> <GoldenKnight: 37...Bd5. But why 34...Qe6? This move gives up some of White's spatial advantage. At 21 ply Rybka is currently recommending 34...bxa5. My suggested move above, ...Bd5 is much stronger with the queen still on f5, as happens in one of the main variations of <Tef>'s 33...Be6 line.> 33...Rf8 34. f4 Qe6 is part of RV's line which got a high rating from Rybka at 28 ply. I started with that because it was my understanding that this Rybka finding was the original motivation for renewed interest in 33...Rf8. After 34...Bd5 it seems that white can play 35.Re2. After 37...Bd5 in the line above it seems that white can play 38. Bg1. Black's advantage after those moves is reduced. |
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May-09-07
 | | Tabanus: 33...Be6 34.axb6 axb6 35.h3 Rf8:
Rybka 2.2, 23-ply (23 only because my computer restarted itself because of an automatic update!): 1. (-0.82) 36.f3 Rc8 37.h4 Bd5 38.Kh2 Qf7
2. (-0.89) 36.Kh2 Kh8 37.Bxd4 Rd8 38.Kh1 Qf7
3. (-0.91) 36.Kh1 Rd8 37.Re3 Qxf2 38.Rxb3 Kh8
4. (-1.01) 36.f4 Kh8 37.Qd3 g5 38.Bxd4 gxf4
RV has started an engine on this line. So far it seems to me we have a pleasant choice between 33...Be6 and 33...Rf8. Hopefully the two do not split the vote so that a third move win! What about 33...Be6 34.axb6 axb6 35.Qd3 ...? |
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| May-09-07 | | izimbra: <Tabanus: So far it seems to me we have a pleasant choice between 33...Be6 and 33...Rf8. Hopefully the two do not split the vote so that a third move win!> My current belief is that Be6 > bxa5 >> Rf8 but maybe you can find a solution to the Rf8 problems I queried about above. |
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| May-09-07 | | Artar1: I'm online now, and will be for the next two and a half hours. I will first work on the suddenly popular 33...Rf8 to see whether it has any merit. Then I will turn my attention to 33...Be6. That's all the time I will have, unfortunately. |
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