< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Mar-12-11|| ||patzer2: After 17. Bxe6! fxe6 18. Rhf1 , the demolition of pawn structure sacrifice leaves White a strong, but apparently not a clearly winning attack.|
|Mar-12-11|| ||KingV93: I also liked Qxf7 and surely would have played it for the fun of it at the very least, though I didn't see a clear forced ending.|
I couldn't see any continuation for White after 21...Nf8 so I plugged it into Fritz and while it didn't find a forced mate it looks like a bloodbath for Black with the ending 'a matter of technique' as they say.
|Mar-12-11|| ||agb2002: The material is even.
The black king in the center suggests the maneuver 15.Rhf1 0-0 16.Rxd7 (to eliminate a defender of f6) Bxd7 17.Bf6 but I'm too tired today to elaborate the variations. It's also interesting 15.Rxd7 directly (15... Kxd7 16.Qxf7+ and mate next).
|Mar-12-11|| ||scormus: <alachabre:> yes, its all about how agressive you feel. In an off hand bar game I'd probably play 15 Qxf7+ (definitely play it after a few beers). In a tournament game I might play 15 Bxe6. In a game for my club I suppose I'd play 15 Ne4 or Rhf1 which are probably objectively the 2 best moves. But Bxe6 was played and it ended 1-0.|
|Mar-12-11|| ||Penguincw: I actually guessed the puzzle very quickly.I was right.I had a glimpse at in and realized that Bxe6 opens up a file against black's uncastled king.Or if black does not capture the bishop,white would be up a pawn.|
|Mar-12-11|| ||agb2002: I saw 15.Bxe6 fxe6 16.Rhf1 Rf8 17.Qc4 but thought that after 17... Bd5 White's attack would lose steam.|
<Jim>'s posts seem to confirm this.
|Mar-12-11|| ||alachabre: Ok, reviewing. 15. Rhf1 is met by the simple 15. ... O-O, so something more forceful is warranted. 15. Bxe6 fxe6 16. Qg4 Nf8! stops that threat. 15. Qxf7+ doesn't lead to mate, so isn't worth giving away the queen.|
The one piece I discarded moving at once was the c knight, as d5 looks like a strongly defended square. But forceful action on d5 might open the diagonal to f7.
15. Nd5 exd5
16. Rxd5 Bxd5
and then the simple 17. ... O-O, so that's out.
15. Ne4 Bxe4
16. Qxe4 is this line worth analyzing? I really don't want the knight to abandon the castle.
15. Rd3 is a move I like and would probably play here OTB, but I don't see any great advantage gained. It gives me access to a kingside attack when Black castles. The sacrificial 15. Bxe6 keeps the king in the center, and is more in line with a puzzle move, so I'll look at some lines there again before I give it up.
15. Bxe6 fxe6
16. Rhf1 Rf8
A strong threat against e6, which is the point of Bxe6. Nice, so what defends?
17. ... Rf5
18. Rxf5 exf5
I dunno. Seems even between the two moves, I think if I were playing it would all boil down to how agressive I felt that game. Right now I guess I have to feel agressive because it's a puzzle, so Bxe6 wins over Rd3. Probably I'm missing something.
|Mar-12-11|| ||alachabre: <scormus ...15 Bxe6 was played and led to a win, so its the right move.>|
Well, I guess the point to the move is that it isn't terribly risky for White, and it gives Black plenty of chances to go wrong, which he does by the losing 17. ... Be7. This is a move that seems natural enough, but allows intrusion into the position. Bxe6 also permanently fixes the Black king in the center during the middlegame, always dangerous.
|Mar-12-11|| ||alachabre: <morfishine> Just wanted to say I appreciate your encouraging comments. I'm a big fan of Rodney, he was a brilliant comic. The pose in that avatar is indeed classic, it's what all of us want our opponents to look like in a game!|
|Mar-12-11|| ||wals: Wrong approach again.
Rybka 4 x 64: d 16 : 4 min :
1. = (0.00): 17...Bd5 18.Nxd5 Rc6 19.Qe4 Rxf1 20.Rxf1 Qxa2 21.Qf4 Nxe5 22.Qxe5 Qa1+ 23.Kd2 Qxf1 24.Qb8+ Kf7 25.Qxb7+ Kg8 26.Qa8+ Kf7 27.Qb7+ Kg8 28.Qa8+ Kf7 29.Qb7+ Kg8 30.Qa8+ Kf7 31.Qb7+ Kg8 32.Qa8+ Kf7
20...Ke8, +10.43.. Best, Bf6, +1.42.
|Mar-12-11|| ||rilkefan: Well, I feel better about getting stuck after a few moves of the game continuation.|
|Mar-12-11|| ||sevenseaman: <<jimforprovidence>|
click for larger view
Now white's plan to play Nc7+ followed by Qxe6+ is a no go, plus white has to worry about ...Be3+, where he loses his queen.
My thanks to Rybka freeware.>
Did you consider 19. Rxf8 Kxf8 20. Rf1+ ~ with 21. Qf7 mate threat?
In my analysis I had come across the nuisance potential of 17... Bd5 alright and proceeded as above, leaving my N hanging at d5.
As you can see Black's shenanigans on the Q wing do not interfere with the mate threat.
However I did have some scruples about interference by Black's N on d7. I was too distracted to assess in detail the consequences of 19... Nxf8 instead of 19... Kxf8.
Could you use Rybka to delve into this, if you are still interested?
|Mar-12-11|| ||stst: 3/12: "Difficult"- depends how it's defined - today it might mean "multiple lines, each requiring very deep analysis -- yet probably still showing no clear win for either side"|
The "Fritz" line might ensue like this:
15. Rhf1 Rf8 16. Bxe6 PxB 17. Qh4 Rxf1 18. Rxf1 Nxe5 (if immediately 19. Qh5+ Kd7 will escape), so 19. Rd1 Nf7 then W got a diversion as to flee the B or to gain momentum by sac the B:
I. flee the B, 20. Bf4 Ph6 21. Qh5 Bb6 to exchange Q, then .... long meanders...
II. sac the B, 20. Qxh7 Nxg5 21. Qh8+ Ke7 22. Qxc8 and W got a huge positional advantage, though down in material.... Still no clear win.
The "Houdini" line might go like this:
15. Ne4 BxN 16. QxB Pb5 17. Bb3 Qc7 18. Qf4 (back to exploiting f7) Rf8 ... W is slowed down, and Bk got better defended, e.g. after 19. Rhf1 Nxe5 allows f7 be guarded by the N and Q, and Bk got chances to exchange Q - after which Q's attack dissipates.
|Mar-12-11|| ||sevenseaman: <scormus><<sevenseaman ... Cricket WC had me pinned> I never used to realise the link cricket-chess. But just the other I read Geoff Boycott complaining about his fork ;)>|
Only about 10 countries across the world play cricket on a regular basis with another 15 or so with some desultory enthusiasm for the game. In our parts, its the game that can halt parliaments conduct normal business. It is the heartthrob of subcontinental billions.
When a game involving its giants is on, life stands still on all other fronts.
I hope you can please forgive me for the occasional importune reference.
|Mar-12-11|| ||sevenseaman: <<morfishine> <sevenseaman> Way to go! I thought I had it but missed the simple 16...Bc6>|
Apologies for the huge time lag in responding. <16...Bc6> ? I miss the context?
|Mar-12-11|| ||sevenseaman: < takchess: I don't see why 21 Qg8 is a win. It looks like it could be adequately blocked and white doesn't seem to me to be standing better.>|
Are you just ribbing or mean the above seriously. Whether you try and insert the N or the B, I see no blockages working with Qf7# available.
21... N f8 22. Qf7 Kd8 23. Qxf8# (Black's B is pinned), and 21. Bf8 22. Qf7#.
|Mar-12-11|| ||M.Hassan: "very Difficult" White to play 15.?
Materials are even.
I tried two lines which i think neither worked!!.One was with 15.Rxd7 which ended up loosing too much material by White and the other was the following:
I am glad to see that the first 2 moves of this line matches the actual game.!!!
Later I got help from Chessmaster and I liked its approach. The following is that analysis:
And it's the time for Black to resign
|Mar-12-11|| ||stst: maybe we're losing one hour to the time adjustment, yet the "fight" between kibitzers still going on ...|
Following the game after 21 Qg8, the N blocks the attack, since we don't forget the d file is already empty, that is, after 22. Qf7 Kd7 escapes (to c7) though 23. BxB is pretty harassing the Bk Q, which can take the eP, then 24. Bd8 dis+ Kb8, 25. QxN give W the upper hand. Then Bk can choose exchange of Q by Qe8, .... etc still quite a long fight awaiting....
It's true thought the B-block fails to Qf7#, since the K is entirely blocked in every direction.
|Mar-13-11|| ||scormus: A difficult one to judge, but despite the engine analyses that give the nod to 15 Ne4 or Rhf1, the best OTB winning chance probably come from Bxe6 <alachabre comment makes a lot of sense>. IMO the correct defense would have been (was) harder to find than threatening moves by W|
<Sevenseaman> its easy to over enthuse about sports matters we are passionate about. I hope the rest of kibitzing community doesnt mind too much
|Mar-13-11|| ||tacticalmonster: did not get it|
|Mar-13-11|| ||SimonWebbsTiger: @tacticalmonster
I found this quite quickly. I would like to tell you why as it might help you and others.
After orientating myself (what's the material, where are the pieces), I recognised this was a Sicilian position. I have read "Sacrifices in the Sicilian" by David Levy and have seen many, many of those typical sacs down the years. Bxe6 is the move and is one of those typical sacs in the Sicilian. Working out if it is sound is the next bit.
I got it quickly because of a knowledge of standard tactical motifs/positions derived from reading. You didn't get it suggests you lack that knowlegde. The good thing is -- you can build up a store of such typical sacs through study.
|Mar-13-11|| ||HeMateMe: What about Dvortsky? Does he have a tactics book you recommend?|
|Mar-13-11|| ||SimonWebbsTiger: @HeMateMe
the Soviets, even before Dvoretsky, had this idea that collecting typical positions and analysing them would help the player. That collection could of course be added to. In fact, Lasker was saying that before them.
In our database and computer age, you can collect games/positions at a key stroke. This game could go in a file called Sicilian - Bishop takes e6. cg.com has that feature. You could use the commercial product chessbase too.
The David Levy book I mention is in the same spirit, as is the new book 7 Ways to Smash the Sicilian. Typical positions are given where white sacs. A knowledge of such sacs will help you play white (and black, for that matter) in the Sicilian!
|Mar-13-11|| ||HeMateMe: Funny you should mention the Sicilian. Several years ago, I started playing only 1. d4, to cut down on the opening knowledge I had to garner. Also, I got tired of losing to black against the Sicilian and Ruy Lopez, where people have absolutely memorized the main lines and responses to death. |
1. d4 leads to a little more independence, I think. You can get out of main lines and avoid some of the tactical fireworks, especially against Sicilian players.
|Mar-13-11|| ||SimonWebbsTiger: @HeMateMe
I've been plaing the English (1.c4) for a similar reason. My kiddy self enjoyed Sicilian battles. I've grown a bit older now! ;o)
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