< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Oct-26-08|| ||TCS: Stoic defence by Black to last that long against all the threats.|
|Oct-26-08|| ||PositionalTactician: I saw Ne5, but can't be bothered with the rest lol.
Nice game :)
|Oct-26-08|| ||chrisowen: A classic case it seems of what happens when white gets in a supported d5 during the QGA. Nowadays, instead of 9..Be7 the brief is queenside development with 9..Nbd7. Georgiev's business at hand improves Furman vs Polugaevsky, 1956 where 12.e5 looked like equality. 11..cxd4 (stopping the thematic d5) followed by 12.Nxd4 Qc7 has been played - 13.Bxe6 is interesting but no-one's tried cashing it in. If 13..Qc7 (optically a safe square) then 14.e5 Ne4 exf7+ Kh8 e6 Bf6 Bd5!? is worth a try. Looks like the deal is 17.Ne5 but I hadn't seen it to the very end.|
|Oct-26-08|| ||aazqua: I thought this was another very nice puzzle but certainly not a Sunday. Then again, maybe this is all a Sunday is. Clearly the pawns are key and the bishop can't leave the defense of e7. This means you can bring the knight up and threaten to open up the h file as the king is trapped. Does ne7 work as well? The sac to open the h file is obvious enough as well ...|
|Oct-26-08|| ||jaydes: Black's defence merits just as much attention as White's attack. Insane.|
|Oct-26-08|| ||A.G. Argent: <TCS...Stoic defence by Black...> Yes, it was, wasn't it. Very. Fighting off two Queens etc. And strong attacking play by Georgiev to get his second Queen and the win. Excellent game.|
|Oct-26-08|| ||The Bycote: This really is a beautiful battle, both players fought brilliantly! However, this is not a game of great precision, both players made significant mistakes through most stages of the game.|
In the opening, as black, I certainly would have closed up the game some with c4! on my tenth or eleventh move - this keeps the d-file closed and leaves white's center pawns on squares his pieces would like to occupy, thereby denying him a lot of immediate activity.
Meanwhile, with white I should open the game with dxc5 on my tenth or eleventh move to open the d-file and activate my pieces as much as possible. Black's 11...b4? is optimistic but unprincipled and ultimately wrong, a real gift to a brilliant player like Georgiev.
However, it seems to me, even Georgiev made at least one identifiable error. White's 14.e5? is a rotten move that should have spoiled his attack. After 14...Ne4! 15.exf7+ Rxf7! is not nearly as dangerous for black as the game - black gives back material to ease the danger to his king.
The immediate 14.exf7+! seems much stronger because 14...Rxf7?? runs into 15.Ng5! which is not possible in the previous line because black's pieces control g5. Black is *forced* into the line which occurs in the game (14...Kh8 15.e5). Move order is important!!
Of course, the line found by RandomVisitor's computer might make this a moot point - indeed, by move 23 in that line the game does seem to be dynamically balanced... At least, it's hard to say how either side wins or simplifies with a winning advantage, it's hideously complicated though! One could hardly expect humans to find such a defense in much less than a few years analysis, so my observation is at least practically relevant. :^)
|Oct-26-08|| ||johnlspouge: Sunday (Insane):
Kiril Georgiev vs Dlugy, 1983 (17?)
White to play and win.
Material: 2Ps for N, but the Black Q-side cannot develop: both Nb8-c6 and Nb8-d7 drop a piece. Thus, White is effectively up a R. The Black Kh8 is stalemated. Moreover, White has a potent K-side attack spearheaded by Pe6 and Pf7, backed by Bb3. The White Rd1 has an open file, and the White Bc1, Qe2, and Nf3 require activation, but have immediate access to the Black K-side. The Black counterattack is dynamic but unfocused. White has some tenderness in Pf2, which is protected by Qe2 and Kg1 and attacked directly by Ne4 and indirectly by Qb6 behind Pc5. Unless watched, c5-c4 could therefore embarrass White, although he has the resource Bc1-e3. Black controls the long diagonals, and Bb7 supports Ne4, which in turn supports the attack on Pb2 by Bf6 and Pc3. If White responds to c5-c4 with Bxc4, Qb3 also supports cxb2. The Black Bf6 is essential to preventing e6-e7, which suggests the following candidate, to seek a check against the stalemated Black Kh8.
Candidates (17.): Ne5
17.Ne5 (threatening 18.Ng6+ hxg6 19.Rd3 and mate along the h-file)
The candidate is typical of the "deep" Sunday puzzles: it activates pieces, namely, Nf3 and Qe2. Beyond the tactical threat to the stalemated Kh8, Black cannot let the positional threats in Nf3-e5 go unchallenged: Ne5 blocks Bf3 controlling the diagonal a1-h8 and supporting cxb2, Black's major Q-side threat.
17…Bxe5 18.e7 (threatening 19.exf8=Q# or 19.e8=Q)
Black must start to give the Greek gifts back, to regain control of his back rank.
(1) 18…Nc6 [Bd6 19.e8=Q] 19.exf8+ Rxf8 20.Qxe4
White has R+P for B, and the Black threats 20…cxb2 and 20…c4 are now nullified, because of
(1.1) 20…cxb2 21.Bxb2 Bxb2 22.Qe8
(1.2) 20…c4 21.Be3
and without forking Ra1 and Bc1, …cxb2 has little venom.
(2) 18…Nd7 19.Rxd7
After a R drops, White has R+P for B, and again, the Black threats 20…cxb2 and 20…c4 are nullified.
(2.1) 19…cxb2 20.Bxb2 Bxb2 21.Qxb2 c4
22.e8=Q Raxe8 [else, down material]
23.fxe8=Q Rxe8 [else, down material] 24.Qxg7#
(1.2) 19…c4 20.exf8+ Rxf8 21.Be3
and because the escape clause Rxb7 is available, White must emerge at least a P ahead with an attack against the Black Kh8.
On both positional and tactical grounds I was sure that Black had to play 17…Bxe5. The kibitzing should be interesting. Today looks like another computer killer.
|Oct-26-08|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <johnlspouge: ... Today looks like another computer killer.>|
Alas, RV's Rybka found a most likely drawing line quickly. So did Hiarcs, but I looked at the puzzle too late to make the analysis worth repeating.
So it looks more like another puzzle that really isn't (a mere week after another of the same kind, J Trapl vs I Hausner, 1980).
|Oct-26-08|| ||johnlspouge: < <sfm> wrote: Nobody - hmm, including myself, admitted - seems to have thought of RandomVisitor's 17.-,c4!!>|
Toga II 1.3.1 agrees with <RandomVisitor>'s best variation. If the computers are correct, today's puzzle was "flawed" - which takes nothing away from its interest, of course.
After 17.Ne5, I focused on the response 17...Bxe5, which Toga thought much better than the game response 17...Qc7. In a position requiring longer computation to be dependable, at about 15 plies Toga evaluates: between 1 P to 2 P for 17...Bxe5; and between 5 P to 6 P for 17...Qc7. The response 17...c4 is better than both 17...Bxe5 and 17...Qc7, because it temporarily denies White the R lift Rd1-d3 to launch the mate threats along the h-file.
|Oct-26-08|| ||johnlspouge: < <MostlyAverageJoe> wrote: <johnlspouge: ... Today looks like another computer killer.> >|
Thanks for the correction, <MAJ>. Humans and computers have different modes of analysis: in the past I have taken comfort from your posts indicating that we humans are still more effective than computers at analyzing some chess positions.
It's too bad today's puzzle is so clearly not among them :)
|Oct-26-08|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <johnlspouge> You can get some comfort from today's Anand-Kramnik game. Anand played 40.Rf2 rather quickly, and it takes Hiarcs very long time to figure out that it draws. Only after 12 plies forward and then sliding back did it realize the truth.|
|Oct-26-08|| ||johnlspouge: < <The Bycote> wrote: [snip] In the opening, as black, I certainly would have closed up the game some with c4! on my tenth or eleventh move - this keeps the d-file closed and leaves white's center pawns on squares his pieces would like to occupy, thereby denying him a lot of immediate activity.>|
Hi, <The Bycote>. Yes, I would have done the same, so I am glad you mentioned it. Before your post, I checked the Opening Explorer. There are no games with the variation ...c4, although cursory analysis by Toga indicates the move is quite viable, as were the game moves. White has a little pull (e.g., 0.5 P) but nothing devastating.
|Oct-26-08|| ||JG27Pyth: Sundays always seem to generate some controversy -- and this one is no exception, but really, what a truly insane & wonderful game. Expecting humans to play that kind of position with computer accuracy isn't fair IMO. I'm too sick today to be able follow the Kibitzing carefully but just the snippets I've caught have been illuminating. I'm looking forward to Monday...(when I'll have the time and energy to come back and re-look at this problem!)|
|Oct-26-08|| ||RandomVisitor: Rybka has a look at white's 17th move:
click for larger view
<21-ply +1.51 17.Rb1> Nc6 18.Qxe4 Nb4 19.Qf5 Bxf3 20.Qxf3 c2 21.Bxc2 Nxc2 22.Qe4 Nd4 23.e7 Bxe7 24.Qxe7 Qg6 25.Be3 Qf5 26.Qd6 Rfd8 27.f8Q+ Rxf8 28.Bxd4 cxd4 29.Qxd4 Rae8 30.f3 Qa5 31.a3 Re2 32.h4
|Oct-26-08|| ||The Bycote: I believe the score to this game is wrong. I've just looked it up in my database (Megabase 2004) and it gives:|
As I pointed out in my previous post, the reversal of this move order is significant and it seems unlikely to me that two international masters would both fail to realize this at the board.
|Oct-26-08|| ||Woody Wood Pusher: I saw the idea of Ng6 but could not make it work, too hard for me today.|
|Oct-26-08|| ||soberknight: I saw Ne5 and Ng6 but missed Rd3, looking for a queen move. More importantly, I missed the point of Nc6-d4 by Black, blocking the long diagonal to prevent Rh3 Bh6 Rxh6 mate, since the g7 pawn would be pinned and could not recapture.|
|Oct-26-08|| ||DarthStapler: I didn't get it, but at least I understand the idea|
|Oct-26-08|| ||RandomVisitor: This game follows Kluger-Furman, Leningrad 1957 up to move 13, which then finished:|
14. exf7+ Kh8 15. e5 Ne4 16. e6 Qc7 17. Bc2 Qc6 18. Re1 Qxe6 19. Bxe4 Bxe4 20. Qxe4 Qxe4 21. Rxe4 Nc6 22. bxc3 1-0
|Oct-27-08|| ||johnlspouge: About best play, Toga agrees with <RandomVisitor>:|
[ply 20/72 time 3:51:08 value +1.20]
17.Rb1 Nc6 18.Qxe4 Nd4 19.Rxd4 Bxe4 20.Rxe4 Qc6 21.Bc2 Qd5 22.e7 Bxe7 23.Rxe7 Rxf7 24.Re3 Qxa2 25.Rxc3 Rd8 26.h3 Qa5 27.Be3 Rc7 28.Ra3 Qb5 29.Ne5 g6 30.Bd3 c4
< <JG27Pyth> wrote: [snip] Expecting humans to play that kind of position with computer accuracy isn't fair IMO.>
It's marvelous to me the courage that a human needs to play such a position. It's something I could not have conceived a year ago. My, how we have grown :)
Good wishes for a speedy recovery, <JG27Pyth>.
|Oct-27-08|| ||kevin86: White's sharp play leads to getting a second queen...and a victory.|
|Oct-27-08|| ||patzer2: For the Sunday Oct 26, 2008 puzzle, White initiates a decisive passed pawn combination with 17. Ne5!!|
However, it would appear from <RV>'s analysis that 17. Rb1!! is as good or perhaps even a better solution.
|Nov-25-08|| ||Soinne: 12. d5! Nice one...|
|Sep-27-16|| ||Xeroxx: That's a lot of queens.|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·