< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|May-12-07|| ||openingspecialist: My line was Qh4+ Kg1 Nf3+ gxf3 Rd5!! which is clearly won. I guess the result is the same as the game. Just different move order.|
|May-12-07|| ||alfilbueno: <checker2> In the line with 21 Qf5+ Kb8 22 Qxf3? Rdg8+ 23 Ng5!! and White wins, because the knight is defended by the bishop at c1.|
However, it is better for White 22 Nxh8! instead of Qxf3? and all is over (22 ... Rg8+ 23 Ng6). Then, it is fundamental to obstruct White's queen with Rd5!! (a pity, I didn't see it).
|May-12-07|| ||Silverstrike: I had 18...Qh4+ 19.Kg1 Nf3+ 20.gxf3 g3 . Does that work?|
|May-12-07|| ||HelaNubo: I missed it, but I learnt something about my own thinking procedure. The first line to be analyzed is obviously 18.... Qh4+ 19. Kg1 Nf3+ 20. gxf3 gxf3, but I clearly saw that 21. Qf5+ would be destructive for Black's attack. This was the critical point: I should have thought that an interference like 18. Rd5! would have prevented this queen move. Instead, I looked for some other line and found: 18.... g3 19. Kg1!
(the only move: 19. Kxg3? Rdg8 20. Bg5 Rxg5+ 21. Nxg5 Qxg5+ 22. Kh2 Qh4+ 23. Kg1 Nf3+ and mate; if 19. Kh3? Qe6+ 20. Kxg3 Rdg8+ 21. Kf4 Nd3+ and the white queen is gone; if 19. gxf3, Qxf1 20. Nxe5 Rd1 and then White escapes with 21. g4, but Black is clearly better)
19... Nf3+ 20. gxf3 Qh4 and now it seemed to me that Black's threats are impossible to meet:
click for larger view
But here White has a saving move (unique move!) that I missed:
21. Re1!! and the black attack evanishes.
Thus, 18... g3 is wrong for a minimal detail after 3 moves, in a complex of lines. So complicated is our game.
|May-12-07|| ||evenua: <I had 18...Qh4+ 19.Kg1 Nf3+ 20.gxf3 g3 . Does that work?> |
I think White can play 21.Re1 and his King will flee away. Now Black is a piece down.
|May-12-07|| ||openingspecialist: <Silverstrike> like all chess games you need to look for defences to your attacks. When you are defending you need to look for your opponents possible attacking moves and defences to them. A chess puzzle is not designed to be a lets have fun at a guess the move puzzle (of course they still can be fun), it is a game situation that gives you practice when you have the advantage and you need to make the best of the opportunity. I understand that you did look in some depth at this puzzle but you missed some defences and you will lose games if you sack peices and even pawns for imprecisely played compensation. May I suggest in your line that you were completely correct til g3 where Rd5 was winning (my line). It is a transposition into the game after Qe3 Rh5.|
Best continuation after Qh4+ Kg1 Nf3+ gxf3 g3 is:
Re1 Rd3 Be3 gxf2+! Kf1! (Bxf2?? Rg8+ Kf1 Qh3+ Ke2 Qxf3+ Kf1 Qg2+ Ke2 Qxe4+ Kf1 Qg2+ Ke2 Qf3+ Kf1 Rd2 ) fxe1=Q+ Rxe1 .
I'd like to say to all that is important to learn from your mistakes in puzzles and in games. After game analysis is one of the best ways to improve your chess. Kibitzing is important as you can share your lines with better and worse players than yourself. Don't be shy to post a line that you think might be winning but probably isn't because other players could learn from the abstract lines if it is in fact winning and if it is losing or drawing you can find out what defences you missed. Just remember everyone makes mistakes with reference to Kramnik and Fritz's game where Kramnik missed a mate in 1! in a drawn situation and lost consequently.
|May-12-07|| ||romison: I also missed 21.Ve1, I thought that 20. ...g3 will be sufficient|
|May-12-07|| ||TrueBlue: got it! very pretty. Although I didn't consider the game's line. I only considered: 18. .. Rd5 19. exd5 Qh4+ 20. Kg1 Nf3+ 21. gxf3 gxf3|
|May-12-07|| ||realbrob: There aren't many problems with this Saturday puzzle, Fritz Junior 8 identified a mate in 11 moves after 5 seconds of analysis, and when you have found a forced mate you can really say the game is over..|
|May-12-07|| ||Gilmoy: I saw all the fragments. I worked out the Qh4+ Nf3+ sac, and saw White's Qf5+ spoiler -- hence I thought g3+ while the N still blockades 5. I considered Rd5, but I was sidetracked by this Rook's back-rank threats at d1, and I didn't see far enough in the brief time I gave it -- I missed the triple-mate fork in <Counterpoint>'s line/<MAJ>'s diagram.|
After <Counterpoint>'s line, if 22 Qd4 Rg8+ (not Qh3 23 Qg7) 23 Ng5 (or Bg5) Qh3 Black's Queen shrugs at the pinned N, and White can't defend g2.
|May-12-07|| ||clocked: <openingspecialist> how is your line "clearly won"? Nxh8 and...|
|May-12-07|| ||aginis: i think 18...Qh4+ 19.Kg1 Nf3+ 20.gxf3 Rd5 transpose into the same position.|
|May-12-07|| ||bogo78: yes i have considered first Qh4+ and all the rest. And i did not see the defense. after black recaptures on g3 white can check at f4 and after the K moves white can safely take on h8 with the Knight. no more valid checks for black there. the g6 square can be covered safely. Too bad I did not have the patience to look for the best defense while working on it. Still a very nice puzzle!|
|May-12-07|| ||clocked: <aginis> no it does not transpose|
|May-12-07|| ||bogo78: < clocked: <aginis> no it does not transpose> to continue the idea, because white will just play 21. Nxh8 Rxc5 22 Ng6 with slightly better position for white. Yes black has the Queen and white's Knight will be captured soon but the mating threats are over and white will have a solid position with 2 passed pawns and material will be quite even.|
|May-12-07|| ||goodevans: Iím feeling a bit chuffed with myself. Donít often get Saturdays so to find the key move in under a minute was a real result. Another couple of minutes just to check the variations and I was there.|
The clue was spotting how to stop white getting the queen to f5. After that it was really quite easy. Anyway, I hope you donít mind me bragging but, as I say, Iím feeling really chuffed.
|May-12-07|| ||fm avari viraf: The whole plan of attack was beautifully executed by Black. The most creative move is 18...Rd5 cutting off the Queen's path of defense & thereafter White was in doldrums.|
|May-12-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <openingspecialist: My line was Qh4+ Kg1 Nf3+ gxf3 Rd5!! which is clearly won> Alas, i is not, as <clocked> already noted.|
20. gxf3 Rd5 21. Nxh8 Rxc5 22. Ng6
and now you have:
click for larger view
with no clear win.
|May-12-07|| ||slowrobot: <MostlyAverageJoe: Alas, i is not, as <clocked> already noted.|
20. gxf3 Rd5 21. Nxh8 Rxc5 22. Ng6>
I'm just beginning to study chess, so excuse my ignorance, but how would that differ significantly from:
18. ... Rd5 19. Nxh8 with either 19. ... Rxc5 or 19. ... Qa4+ to follow?
|May-12-07|| ||brainzugzwang: <HelaNubo>: Wait - I was looking at the 18...g3 line too, and I think it still works where you left off after White's 21.Re1.|
21...g2 22.Kxg2 (forced to stop ...Qh1#) Rdg8+ 23.Bg5 hxg5 and I don't see a defense to ...Qh3#, ...Qh2# or Qh1#, depending on White's response. Anyone?
|May-12-07|| ||ikalel: great puzzle! I loved it. More of these ChessGames, please!|
|May-12-07|| ||sfm: <openingspecialist: Just remember everyone makes mistakes...>
Speak for yourself.|
|May-12-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <slowrobot: how would that differ significantly from:18. ... Rd5 19. Nxh8 with either 19. ... Rxc5 or 19. ... Qa4+ to follow?>|
This is the position after 18. ... Rd5 19. Nxh8 ... Rxc5 (19. ... Qa4+ is nowhere as good):
click for larger view
The white knight cannot be saved, so effectively the black has a Queen-for-Rook material advantage, and strong attack on king side to be resumed as convenient. Easy win for the black (computer evaluation at -7.39 (16-ply) and improving for the black with longer analysis, which is a good symptom.
After the line proposed by <openingspecialist>, refuted by <clocked>, and diagrammed by myself in the previous post (18. ... Qh4+ 19. Kg1 Nf3+ 20. gxf3 Rd5 21. Nxh8 Rxc5 22. Ng6), the black has two reasonable moves, Qf6 and Qh3, both leading nowhere and evaluating close to 0.00.
|May-12-07|| ||kevin86: A funny game;black allowed his rooks to be forked,but used one of them to team with the queen to steamroll his opponent along the h-file|
|May-13-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <brainzugzwang: <HelaNubo>: Wait - I was looking at the 18...g3 line too, and I think it still works where you left off after White's 21.Re1.
21...g2 22.Kxg2 (forced to stop ...Qh1#) Rdg8+ 23.Bg5 ...>|
Nope, 23.Kf1, and the attack is gone, just as <HelaNubo> said.
And even after your proposed 23.Bg5 hxg5, white has 24.Rh1, winning the black queen.
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