< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Mar-06-07|| ||tamar: As Larry Evans would say, it's a detective story.
I thought Ivanchuk was going to play 15...Nc6 and bring the knight back into play immediately, as Eljanov did in the 2004 Olympiad they played on together. J Stocek vs Eljanov, 2004
15...Qe7 gives White all the play he gets with 15...Qxh4 while not even winning a pawn, so that gets my vote as
where he went wrong.
|Mar-06-07|| ||dehanne: After 15..Qxh4, doesnt black lose the queen after 16.Bg5?|
After 16...Qh5 17.Ng3 and if instead, 16...Qg4 17.f3 first.
|Mar-06-07|| ||djmercury: Qc7 and Nc6 were poor moves, totally understimating white kingside treath.
At least till move 17 the game was following known theory.|
|Mar-06-07|| ||ChessMan94: Look at the statistics for this opening:
White wins 36.3%
Black wins 22.4%
Apparently it should be avoided by Black!
|Mar-06-07|| ||csmath: <Is 10..Na5 common?>|
It is obviously played before but it is not a good move. If you want a proof see the rest of this game, Carlsen nails it, the trouble Chucky has developing his queen and getting knight back is worth noting. Carlsen just energetically created dynamic supremacy on the queenside that Chucky had little chance.
Excellent game by Carlsen.
|Mar-06-07|| ||tamar: <dehanne> You're right. I hadn't considered 15...Qxh4 16 Bg5 Qg4 17 f3 Qh5 18 Ng3 thinking that the d pawn had to be protected. |
After 18...Bxd4+ 19 Rf2 Bxf2+ 20 Kxf2 Qh2
21 Rh1 the queen is still trapped.
|Mar-06-07|| ||nikolajewitsch: <Chessman94> Which opening are you talking about exactly? The Gruenfeld in general? Or this line in particular? Until which move? Besides, roughly 57-43 is not such a bad statistic for black....|
|Mar-06-07|| ||keypusher: <chessman94> those statistics are typical for a QP opening. Plenty are worse! See statistics in my forum.|
|Mar-07-07|| ||cirbals: anybody saw 24.Bb1!! followed by Qc2 ?????try to analyze this one... cya|
|Mar-07-07|| ||sergeidave: My goodness, has Carlsen beaten Ivanchuk in their first two games ever?? Cool...|
|Mar-07-07|| ||THE pawn: <sergeidave> No, they played against each other already once before the tournament. The game ended in a draw, Carlsen being white.|
|Mar-07-07|| ||Billy Ray Valentine: <csmath: <Is 10..Na5 common?>
It is obviously played before but it is not a good move.>|
According to the openings explorer, there are 60 games in the database where black played 10...Na5, with White winning 30% of the games and black winning 23.3% of the games. The move I did not expect to see was 15. h4--although there are 5 other games in the database where White played that move...
At any rate, Carlsen seemed to know the opening quite well...
|Mar-07-07|| ||Fisheremon: <ganso: Was 22 ... h6 a horrible blunder, or was Black already in deep trouble? Seems that after Carlsen replies Qc1 Black loses by force. Hard to believe this win was against a 2750 super GM.> IMO 20...Qc7? losing. Perhaps the best for Black was 21...Bb7 (21...Nc6? losing a piece, so the game) 22.Qg5 h6 23.Qh4 g5 24.Bxg5 hxg5 25.Qxg5 Kf8 26.h6 ( ). A better try might be 20...Qd7!?|
|Mar-07-07|| ||Marmot PFL: This line is well covered in Sakaev's book on the Grunfeld. His comments 15.h4 "This is an important moment. White brings into the attack on his opponent's kingside the h pawn, before the exchange of dark squared bishops." If instead 15.Bh6 Qe7! is OK for black. After 15.h4 best according to Sakaev is Qd7. After 15...Qe7 16.h5 Rfc8 17.Bg5! is given...maybe this is where Ivanchuk had an improvement (if anywhere), but Carlsen's 17.e5 looks at least as good. Maybe 20...Qd7 is black's best chance but even here white is at least according to the author.|
|Mar-07-07|| ||draginoth: Cirbal's idea of 24.Bc1 is in fact a very strong move, perhaps better than the pin that was played in the game. The point is to play 25.Qc2 with a mate threat, or wins material on the king side.|
|Mar-07-07|| ||Ulhumbrus: <JohnBoy: <Ulhumbrus> - doesn't 22...Bxh6 23.ef6 Qd6 24.hg6 *g6 25.Bxg6 just win outright?> It seems so, in which Black must seek alternatives, and possibly earlier|
|Mar-07-07|| ||Ulhumbrus: <JohnBoy: <Ulhumbrus> - doesn't 22...Bxh6 23.ef6 Qd6 24.hg6 *g6 25.Bxg6 just win outright?> It seems so, in which Black must seek alternatives, and possibly earlier. An alternative to 15...Qe7 is 15...Qd7 attacking d4 with an additional piece. An alternative to 16...Rfc8 is 16...Rac8 heeping the other R to defend f7 or for ...Rd8, or 16..Rfd8, while instead of 17...Rxc1 an alternative is 17...Nc6 at once. Perhaps 15...Qd7 16 h5 Rfd8 17 e5 Nc6 is the right way eg 18 Bg5 Nb4 19 Bb1 Nd5 keeping White's Q out of f4|
|Mar-07-07|| ||Shajmaty: <cirbals: i think the best move here is 24.Bb1!! followed by 25.Qc2 :).. somebody think bout it?> I still prefer 24. Bb5.|
|Mar-07-07|| ||Shajmaty: <dehanne: Where did black go wrong? [...] Is 10..Na5 common? And is there anything wrong with 20..f6?>|
10...Na5?! is not the best choice for Black (15. h4! and 22. Qg5! are superb), and 22...g5? ruins it all.
After 20...f6; 21. Qc3, Bb7; 22. exf6, Bxf6; 23. Bxf6, Qxf6; 24. Qc7, Qf7; 25. Qb8+ White is clearly up. Maybe 20...Qd7 was worth a try.
|Mar-07-07|| ||djmercury: Na5 is known theory and totally playable, also 15. h4 as written before was played more than once.|
|Mar-07-07|| ||Shajmaty: <djmercury: Na5 is known theory and totally playable, also 15. h4 as written before was played more than once.> So what? "10...Na5?! is not the best choice for Black ", since 10...Bg4, 10...Qc7 or even 10...cxd4 are played MORE OFTEN (and WITH BETTER RESULTS!). 15. h4! as "superb" because it is better than the ALSO PLAYED MORE THAN ONCE 15. Bh6.|
|Aug-10-07|| ||alexandrovm: Carlsen grounds down a super GM with fine style...|
|Nov-11-08|| ||notyetagm: <alexandrovm: Carlsen grounds down a super GM with fine style...>|
Carlsen did not "grind" here, this is a massacre.
|Feb-09-12|| ||Naniwazu: 17. e5 is a good move.
As Marovic mentions in his book 'Secrets of Positional Chess' (Gambit, 2003) while an attack is in progress any static weaknesses (in this case the h1-a8 diagonal) are suspended unless they themselves can be attacked. Black never had time to exploit the long diagonal because White's attack came too fast.
|Jun-01-13|| ||csmath: Theoretically important Exchange Grunfeld. Classic attack, a game ready for Magnus' "memorable games" collection. Although Ivanchuk played rather cliche. Nevertheless Magnus play is very simple but creative at the same time. 17.e5 and the whole plan of attack is extremely precise.|
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