< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Oct-13-07|| ||znprdx: <playground player: Why would anyone ever deliberately play for a draw, unless he was badly losing and that was the best he could hope for?> Evidently you didn't follow the recent World Championship tournament in Mexico :)|
|Oct-13-07|| ||eblunt: To me, Whites play isn't accurate.
17 Qxf6 ? gives a tempo to black for the better IMO 17 .. ♕e7.
To me it should be
17 ♕g6+ ♔h8 18 ♕xf6+ ♔g8/h7 19 e4 which then if black plays 19 ... ♕e7 then whites ♕g6+,♕h6+,♗g5 is winning.
|Oct-13-07|| ||aazqua: This is absolutely trivial, but white's play following the obvious knight sack is horrendous. 17qf6??? Uh, how about qg6 ch FIRST and then qf6 ch retaining the tempo? What was white thinking?? Based on kh7 I have to assume that the score was wrong and the game progressed as I suggest above.|
"Who says this might be too much"
Are you kidding? This is a Tuesday puzzle at best. Everything is forced and apparent - the knight sack to allow the q to g6, sweep out the pawns and then prepare the rook lift and impeed the bishop coverage of the key squares. Obviously avoid the exchange of queens and prevent black taking w/queen exposure. e5 at the very end is about the only move I wouldn't expect to see. This is one of those rare situations where it's trivial to look 15 moves in advance.
|Oct-13-07|| ||arnaud1959: After 17-e4 I don't know if the win would be so easy even possible. But I start getting used to saturday an sunday puzzles. You must find the idea and a couple of moves. The rest is intuition.|
|Oct-13-07|| ||xrt999: <Is he repeating moves to save time,or is he just harassing his opponent with bully tactics?>|
maybe they were nearing time control, adding more time to their clocks after a certain number of moves. This is a modern game after all.
Or, white was trying to lull black into THINKING that he was just playing for a draw, all the while white is seeing clear forced lines.
|Oct-13-07|| ||xrt999: Interesting, CM plays 14.Bc2 and not 14.Nf6+. The point is that now white can still play Nf6+, but black cannot play Na5 or Nb5. In this line black then plays Be7 to protect against Nf6+ and the game proceeds from there.|
It doesnt even look at Nf6+, and when I force it to it gives white only +0.03, Nf6+ is a pretty bad move
CM lets out a condescending sigh and we check out Nf6+. In that line, another interesting point is that CM throws in the in-between move 17.Qg6+ Kh8 and THEN Qxf6+, giving white a tempo.
<aazqua: This is absolutely trivial, but white's play following the obvious knight sack is horrendous. 17qf6??? Uh, how about qg6 ch FIRST and then qf6 ch retaining the tempo?>
|Oct-13-07|| ||fm avari viraf: White is having a superior position & ready to go for the King hunt with 14.Nf6+ gxf6 forced 15.Qg6+ Kh8 16.Qxh6+ Kg8 & White can draw the game if he wants with perpetual +++ But White has a winning attack 17.Qxf6 Qe7 18.Qg6+ Kh8 19.Qh6+ Kg8 20.e4 The text move 17...Kh7 will not help much again 18.e4 & White has an overwhelmed attack against the decrepit Black King.|
|Oct-13-07|| ||willyfly: Material is even and the positions look balanced to an untrained eye like mine. I'm looking for moves that force - and I find|
14 ♘f6+ <forks ♔ and ♕>
14...gxf6 <wrecks Black's ♙ structure and exposes the ♔ to frontal attack.>
15 ♕g6+ <takes advantage of the pin on the f7♙>
15...♔h8 16 ♕xh6+ ♔g8
<and the following is pure speculation by me.>
17 ♗d3 f5 18 ♕g5+ ♔h8 19 ♕f6+ ♔h7 20 ♗xf5+ ♗xf5 21 ♕xf5+ ♔g7
let's look now
A lot of very nice work with the ♕. And even so - it takes 12 moves to bring the ♖ into action. The move I don't understand so well is 17 ♕xf6 followed by 17...♔h7 it looks like 17...♕e7 could put a wrinkle in White's plan.
|Oct-13-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: As noticed by <dzechiel>, myself, <Nostrils>, and a couple more people, the correct moves 17-18 are:|
17 Qg6+ Kh8 18 Qxf6+
to retain the tempo and prevent 17... e4! that would derail the white's attack after 17.Qxf6.
<Nostrils: ... In the game line 17 .. kh7 doesn't make sense. Makes we wonder if the script is wrong.>
I looked up that game on http://www.chesslive.de/, and it also contains the double-blunder 17. Qxf6?? Kh7?? -- so there is a possibility that it really happened that way -- but I agree with <Nostrils> and others - the record of the game must be missing the 17. Qg6+ Kh8 moves. After all, if a patzer like myself saw it, there is no way that two 2500+ rated players would've missed it.
|Oct-13-07|| ||eblunt: <xrt999:> good observation!|
... after mine , thank you
|Oct-13-07|| ||TheaN: 6 out of frikkin 6! Tomorrow FTW!
I have to admit that I didn't really got every single reply this time, but I played the best attacking lines:
14.Nf6 gxf6 15.Qg6+ Kh8 16.Qxf6+ Kg8 (Kh7) 17.e4
Now, I have to admit that I missed the idea of Qe7. Of course my (16....Kh7) would lead to Qxh6+, but now it's less clear, but the Bishop enters via g5! (18.Qxh6 with 19.Bg5; Black still can't play f6!) and it's . Any other reply seems to lose because the Rook can enter via d3 (that I noticed).
I think this is one of those saturdays where it's actually the unclear followup position that makes it very difficult. Up to e4, everything's obvious. Even after e4, everything SEEMS obvious, but it's actually harder than it is.
|Oct-13-07|| ||uuft: Found the first four moves. Tried it on the board above. Had to be right from the first try. Good fun.|
|Oct-13-07|| ||uuft: Instead of guessing black's response, you can check it above. Saves time for me. Staring at the diagram on the homepage is what I used to do.
This puzzle was a bit easy imho. 5/6|
|Oct-13-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <eblunt: <xrt999:> good observation!
... after mine , thank you>
Indeed, isn't it annoying when people don't read the earlier posts and attribute the discovery of the <17 Qg6+ Kh8 18 Qxf6+> line to someone who was the seventh person to post it, instead to at least noticing the sixth post of the same line :-)
I just hope I got the count right ...
MAJ, number 2 (after dzechiel, who was the first).
|Oct-13-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: Okay, computer analysis time. And the verdict MIGHT be that NOBODY provided the most forcing line, except after looking at the complexity of the position after move 20 or so, I don't trust any of the evaluations very much. In any case, most solutions were good enough to win, and there is no doubt there.|
Analyzing this game can give one serious doubts about computer's ability to pick the best moves even in the very forcing lines. Descending up-and down the variants changes the best choices way too frequently, even with >16 plies per step. But I wrote it all up (this is the last paragraph I am typing), so might as well post it.
Moves 14. Nf6+ gxf6 15. Qg6+ Kh8 are either completely forced (for black) or undoubtedly best choices (for white).
Now white can play as in the game:
16. Qxh6+ Kg8 (+7.39)
or a most likely slightly weaker, but still winning line shown by <TheaN>:
16.Qxf6+ Kh7 17.e4 (+4.34)
<<<At move 17 there are two winning moves for white: 17.Qg6+ and 17.e4, and the latter is BETTER - not by much, but a bit better>>>. Come to think of it, this is where I spent most of my time when coming up with my very first post -- I kept considering whether to take the f6 pawn or leave it be, so that it would prevent black Q from getting easy access to the action -- the untouched f6 pawn would prevent f7-f6. OTB, this also would've been a point to rethink the next couple of moves.
After 17.e4, black has a number of similar-quality moves and the analysis becomes really complex. Here are the four best lines as displayed by Hiarcs (15-ply deep):
(+7.39) 17... exd4 18. Qg6 Kh8 19. Qxf6 Kh7 20. Qh4 Kg8 ...
(+8.00) 17... Ne7 18. Rd3 exd4 19. f4 Bg4 20. Rg3 Qd7 ...
(+8.15) 17... Qd7 18. Qg6 Kh8 19. Qxf6 Kh7 20. Qh6 Kg8 ...
(+8.50) 17... Be6 18. Rd3 exd4 19. f4 Ne7 20. Bxe6 fxe6 ...
It is interesting that up to 14 plies, these lines evaluate within 0.25 pawn of each other. OTB, playing 17.e4 could be a way to win on time by having the opponent think about too many variants :-)
<<<OK, back to the game as it was played (if the record is correct) 16. Qxh6+ Kg8 >>>
As noticed by many, 17.Qxf6 is a bad blunder. The best response for the black is, indeed, 17...e4, leading to something like: 18. Qg6+ Kh8 19. Qh6+ Kg8 20. f3 Be6 21. d5 Ne5 22. Qg5+ Kh7 23. Qh4+ Kg7 24. dxe6 Nxc4 25. b3 Ne5 26. Bb2 f6 which Hiarcs evaluates as a dead draw (0.00) in this position:
click for larger view
During the analysis of the line above, evaluation for white never exceeded 0.50, and any exploration of side lines ended in draws as well. Unless I missed something, it is thus quite likely that
In the line played (allegedly) in the game, 17 ... e4 WOULD END IN A DRAW.
<<<Back to the game again, after 16. Qxh6+ Kg8>>>
The second best continuation after 16 moves is as proposed by many (and not what was recorded in the game):
17. Qg6+ Kh8 18. Qxf6+
and now black has two responses.
18 ... Kg8 19. e4 exd4 20. Qg5+ Kh7 21. Qh4+ Kg8 22. Rd3 (+6.94)
18 ... Kh7 (transposes to the same line as above).
The rest of the game is very complex to analyze, and I've spent more time on it than I planned, and I am getting a headache now, so I'll just post the above, so that anyone reading it can get a headache too :-)
|Oct-13-07|| ||znprdx: <MostlyAverageJoe:...Indeed, isn't it annoying when people don't read the earlier posts> such as my posts :) Q.E.D.|
|Oct-13-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <znprdx: <MostlyAverageJoe:...Indeed, isn't it annoying when people don't read the earlier posts> such as my posts :) Q.E.D.>|
But at least your post has been very much read by yours truly MAJ, and duly acknowledged. The acknowledgment is between extra <<<<>>>> below:
<MostlyAverageJoe: As noticed by <dzechiel>, myself, <Nostrils>, and a <<<<<couple more people>>>>>>
Okay, so here's the complete list of people who wanted to play 17 Qg6+ Kh8 18 Qxf6+, or noticed the 17. Qxf6?? Kh7?? blunders, or both: <dzechiel>, <chessmoron>, <Amulet>, <MAJ>, <Alphastar>, <Nostrils>, <ConstantImprovement>, <realbrob>, <Marmot PFL>, <psmith>, <znprdx>, <LivBlockade>, <eblunt>, <aazqua>.
Yup, I did mis-count. And wouldn't be surprised if I still missed someone. Oh, well, good job, everyone!
BTW, <znprdx>, why did I deserve the honor of being mentioned in this note: <znprdx: IMHO this qualifies as a legitimate chess problem - clearly there is no routine forced sequence leading to mate. Ok of course we do have a forced perpetual check >MAJ< would like this because in some cases it is enough to win a tournament :)> ?
|Oct-13-07|| ||King mega: I solved 14.Nf6+ gxf6 15. Qg6+ Kh8 16. Qxh6+ Kg8 17. Qg6+ (haha taking advantage of the pinned f-pawn!) Kh8 18. Qxf6+ Kg8 19. e4 Qe7 20.Qg6+ Kh8 21. Qh6+ Kg8 22.Rd3|
click for larger view
|Oct-14-07|| ||King mega: <a<a<a<a<a<a<a<a<a<a<a>>>>>>>>>>>|
|Oct-14-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <King mega: <a<a<a<a<a<a<a<a<a<a<a>>>>>>>>>>>>|
Oh, I see you decided to read my analysis. This was exactly what I was muttering towards the end :-)
|Oct-14-07|| ||TheaN: Hm. Odd that (and a lot of others) missed the repetetion of the pinned pawn; take h6 first, back to g6 and f6 next. The given line won, but with less material taken XD. I still count it as a point.|
|Oct-14-07|| ||TheaN: *Odd that I|
|Oct-14-07|| ||TheaN: <Okay, so here's the complete list of people who wanted to play 17 Qg6+ Kh8 18 Qxf6+, or noticed the 17. Qxf6?? Kh7?? blunders, or both: >|
Me, me! XD
|Oct-15-07|| ||patzer2: For the October 13, 2007 puzzle, on which
date I celebrated my birthday (On November 14th Prince Charles and I will both be59 years old), White initiates a winning demolition of pawn structure combination with 14. Nf6+!
|Apr-08-12|| ||Penguincw: Hits the bishop, and threatens mate in 3.|
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