< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Nov-11-07|| ||An Englishman: Good Evening: I analyzed the position for a long time and found the move actually played--but I didn't know this was a forced combination. To me it simply looked like a promising speculative (or real, or intuitive) sacrifice. I didn't see the best defense, either.|
It's amazing how far my tactical skills lag behind some players.
|Nov-11-07|| ||KnightOnEverest: beautifull tactics !!!!!|
|Nov-11-07|| ||stukkenjager: how to proceed after 21...♕c8
24...♕h6?? was a mistake, black should have tried 24...♖d8.
|Nov-11-07|| ||cheski: <dzechiel:This is one of those positions that makes me wonder what the last move was. >|
In the past I have asked CG if this could be included, but was told that would clutter up the front page.
What I do now is open the game in my GUI and put it on 'Opening book', blacking out the 'notation' so I can't see the moves in question.
Then play down to just before the move number and start thinking.
I agree that this was a fascinating position today. I wonder how 22.Re5 rather than Re6 would have worked out during play. But then... Black would have had a tempo to castle I suppose.
|Nov-11-07|| ||Alphastar: White to play, Insane. We have a lead in development here, so some direct action is needed or black will simply castle kingside and have a good game.
The most obvious here would be to move our bishop away and then take on e6. So I'd like to play|
1. Bf4 black has two tries here, taking the bishop and playing 1. ..Qc6.
1. ..Qc6 2. Rd6! Bxd6 3. Qxe6+ Kd8 4. Bxd6 and we are easily winning here, eg 4. ..Qd7 5. Be7+! Qxe7 6. Rd1+ Ke8 7. Qc6+ and black is screwed: 7. ..Kf7 8. Rd7, or 7. ..Kf8 8. Qxa8+.
So how about that other line:
1. .. Qxf4 2. Qxe6 Qc7 (Qf6? 3. Qd7+ Kf7 4. Rf5 ) 3. Rfd1 (threatening Rd7) Ra7 and its getting hard to find something good here. I think I would go for 4. Rd8+ Qxd8 5. Rxd8+ Kxd8 6. Qxb6+ Rc7 7. Qxa6 with three pawns for the piece.
Time to check.
Alright, my first line is pretty bad, white should not play 4. Bxd6?? but 4. Rd1! which is pretty bad for black.
My second line is better, but there I missed 4. Rd6! when black can't do anything about the threat of 5. Rc6-c8+.
Note that the position after 24. Rd5 is the same as when black would've played 21. ..Qxf4 22. Qxe6, except the pawn on a4 is missing.
Great attack by Rozentalis though.
|Nov-11-07|| ||willyfly: Material is equal on insane 11/11/07 and I'm pondering the quote of the day - what - does - it - mean?|
White is about to lose a ♖ and must act qickly - I'm thinking - to save the ♖ attack the ♕.
20 ♗f4 ♕xf4 21 ♕xe6 wins a ♙ and threatens ♕c6+ Δ ♕xa8 and prevents Black from castling to either side. It also threatens mate after playing a ♖ to the e-file.
I could easily be way wrong here (and there's no opium to slow time or speed thoughts) and I'm falling asleep after a hard night's work. Going to look now and see what the solution be.
I'm pleased just to get 20 ♗f4 The remainder of this game was very interesting.
|Nov-11-07|| ||Erdkunde: Extraordinary, un-obvious tactics especially for a position lacking those devious horses.|
|Nov-11-07|| ||znprdx: Consistent with this weeks <CG> themes is the almost obvious 20. Bxc5 (..Bxc5? 21. Qxe6+ and White should be able to maintain the upper hand) so...b6xc5 21.Qxe5 and Black is in zugswang after White gets in Re1 or maybe even better R[f]d1 – the key point is that Black cannot castle without having to give back the Bishop, at which point White's pawn majority will win handily. If I am correct-then this was not a Sunday puzzle|
Regardless of the intuition/calculation debate I’m about to lose on time again here as I’m painfully reminded of the conclusion reached decades ago by a Dutch researcher who found that the weaker the player the more lines of possible play are often considered (to whit I looked long and hard at at A]Re1 B]Bf4,g5,or h6 and even C]f5 whereas the stronger player zones in on the right plan almost immediately and only spends time looking to be certain to be able to handle any resourceful counter-play which might ensue.
|Nov-11-07|| ||alshatranji: I spent all the times analyzing Bf4 and Black's responses to it. I didn't even consider Black's other options. I saw Rd6 only after playing Black's response. The rest is truly beautiful. I especially enjoyed the cold-blooded 24.Rd5. Of course, knowing that there is a decisive, winning move makes Bf4 relatively easy to find. But in a real game, I doubt that I would even consider it.|
|Nov-11-07|| ||znprdx: By the way <CG> once again, like yesterday, we have to know whether castling remains an option. INSANE... Sunday indeed!...I had 20. Bf4 Qx[B]f4 21. Qxe6 but after Qc7 despite 22. Re1 it might not be as bad as it seems. However unfortunately the simple ...20.Qc6 appears to hold. Boy was I wrong: where did that Rd6 come from? As for 24.Rd5 how exquisite! This was very humbling. Although Bf4 was the second move I looked at, I could not see beyond my limitations. However I'd like to believe Bxc5 also wins. Can anyone help me to save face:)|
|Nov-11-07|| ||xrt999: black should have castled on move 12, it was the last opportunity before white began to attack.|
|Nov-11-07|| ||Jimfromprovidence: There were two great moves by white in this sequence. 22 Rd6, was one, but also the subtler 23 Qxe6 instead of Rxe6. This move prevents black from castling next move, which would have given black new life by releasing the king rook and protecting the king better. |
Nevertheless, black could have played 24… Rd8, which would have given him a small fighting chance. 24… Rd8 eventually leaves white up the exchange (rook for a bishop) with some work left to do.
|Nov-11-07|| ||ConstantImprovement: First Part:
A. The found main line is:
21. Bf4 Qf4: 22. Qe6 Qb5 23. c3 Qh4 24. g3 Qh6 25. Qd7+ Kf7
Variation 1: 26. Rf5+ Kg6 27. Qe7:! Kf5: 28. g4+ Kf4 and Black will not survive
Variation 2: 26. Re1 Ra(h)e8 27. Rf5+ Kg6 28. Rd6+ Bf6, and there has to be a winning combination.
B. The analysis leading to the main line:
The rook is threatened, there are only two possibilities:
Move the rook or play something forcing, probably involving the sacrifice of the rook.
There are no useful or active rook moves. No move leads to a white advantage.
I. 21. Qd3? The idea is to be able to play 23. Qa6: after 21. ... Rd8 22. Rd8:+ Qd8: and to play 22. Qd5: after 21. ... ed. After 22. Qd5: White threatens the a8-rook and prevents 0-0. But 22. ... Rd8 23. Qh5+ (What else?) g6 defends and Black wins. So 21. Qd3 is bad.
II. 21. Bg5? The idea is that the e6-pawn is weak and the black is still on the e-file. The move is good after several black replies, for instance:
1. 21. ... 0-0? 22. Qe6:+ Rf7 (Else 23. Qe7: right away) 23. Re7, winning
2. 21. ... Bg5:? 22. Qe6:+ and now
a. 22. ... Kf8 23. Re7 Be3+ 24. Kh1
b. 22. ... Be7 23. Rfd1! , because Rd7 is threatened and 23. ... Ra7 is countered by 24. Rd8#
c. 22. ... Qe7 23. Qc6+ and now
c1. 23. ... Kf8 24. Qa8:+
c2. 23. ... Kf7 24. Rd7
But an adequate reply is
3. 21. ... ed! 22. Re1 (What else?) and now not 22. ... Ra7? because of 23. Be7: Qe7: 24. Qd2 , but 22. ... 0-0!
and White can only play 23. Qe7: Qe7:
24. Re7: (24. Be7: Re8 ) Re8, which is at least , but rather (23. Be7: Rae8 ; 23. Qe6+ Rf7 ).
|Nov-11-07|| ||ConstantImprovement: |
III. 21. Bf4 This move remains as the last forcing move (21. f4 to allow Qh5+ is rather silly).
It seems to acceptance of the sacrifice is necessary, both 21. ... Qc6 and 21. ... Qc8 to protect the e6-pawn are answered by 22. Re5 0-0 (Qc7 23. Re6: Qf4: 24. Re7:+ Kf8 25. Qe6 is hopeless) 23. Re6: Bf6 24. Qc4! Kh8 24. Rfe1! Qf7 (Bb2:? 25. Re7 ) 25. c3, and White is better.
21. ... Qf4: 22. Qe6: (Is this enough? 0-0 is prevented, the Be7 is pinned with the threat of Rfe1, Qc6+ is a possibility, Rd7 with the mate threat on e7 can be played, Qd7+ looms with the follow-up Rf5+, winning the queen and the black queen probably can not take care of all that threatsby herself. The unconnected rooks might not be able to help her. It will come down to checking all plausible black answers for precise white replies.)
1. 22. ... Qc7? 23. Rfd1!, transposing to variation II.2.b., White is winning.
2. 22. ... Qf6? 23. Qd7+ Kf8 (Kf7) 24. Rf5
3. 22. ... Rd8? 23. Rd8:+ Kd8: 24. Rd1+ Ke8 (Kc7? 25. Rd7+ Kb8 26. Qb6:+ and mate next move) 25. Qc8+! Kf7 26. Rf5+, winning the queen:
a. 26. ... Kg6 27. Qe6+ and 27. Rf4:
b. 26. ... Bg6 27. Qd7+ and 27. Rf4:
4. 22. ... Rf8? 23. Qd7+ and Rf5+ as above
5. 22. ... Qb8 23. Rd7 and mate on e7 or winning after 23. ... Qd8 24. Rd8:+
6. 22. ... Qa4:?, controlling d7 again and getting away from the f-file. 23. Rfd1, renewing the threat, is strong enough (Against 23. Re1 Black would have Qh5!, making it difficult.) 23. ... Rf8 24. Rd7 Rf7 25. Re7:+! Re7: 26. Qg8#
7. 22. ... Qb4, controlling e1. Bad would be 23. Rd7? c4! 24. c3 Qc5+, but 23. c3! either wins after 23. ... Qb2: 24. Rd7 or forces Black into the Qh4-line.
8. 22. ... Qh4 The last possibility for Black 23. g3! This forces either the Qa4:-line (6.) or the Qf6-line (2.) or 23. ... Qh6. An unexpected resource. Perhaps 24. Qd7+ Kf7 (Kf8? 25. Rf5+ Bg6 26. Re1 with mate on e7 or 25. ... Kg8 26. Qe7:, winning.).
25. Re1 threatens taking the bishop. 25. ... Rae8 or Rhe8 26. Rf5+ Kg6 (Kg8 27. Re7: Re7: 28. Qe7: g6! 29. Rf7! Rg8 30. Qf6+, winning) 27. Rd6+ Bf6! (Kf5:? 28. Rh6:+) and Black seems to defend, despite this being quite improbable. There has to be a combination, but it is not clear to see.
25. Rf5+ forces Kg6. Is there a mate? What about 26. Qe7:? Black has to take because his king could not survive on g6 for long after a rook move like Re8 or Rf8. So 26. ... Kf5: 27. g4+ Kf4 (Kg6 28. f4 threatening f5# and or 28. Qe6+ Kg5 29. Re1 and White is winning) and the black king will not survive the hunt.
|Nov-11-07|| ||ConstantImprovement: Well, a lesson learned:
It was too quick to say "And mate after Re1." in my analysis. It was necessary to work out the mate after a simple waiting move like Rb8.
But it was fun, nonetheless.
|Nov-11-07|| ||patzer2: For today's extremely difficult Sunday puzzle solution, White plays the combined decoy and deflection 21. Bf4!? to exploit the apparently helpless Black King position.|
However, it seems to me that after 21...Qxf4! 22. Qxe6 Qh6! White's task of finding a win is not so easy, as Black now just might turn the tables and steal the win from the jaws of defeat. Would be interested to see if anyone has analyzed this possibility, and checked it with a strong computer program.
|Nov-11-07|| ||patzer2: White's best may be to force a draw by perpetual after 21. Bf4 Qxf4 22. Qxe6 Qh6 23. Qd7+ Kf7 24. Rf5+ Kg6 25. Re5 Bf6
26. Qf5+ Kf7 27. Qe6+ Kg6 28. Qf5 =.|
|Nov-11-07|| ||Ashram64: one of those puzzle really wants me to jump in and play some tactical game. I'm throughly impressed as well|
|Nov-11-07|| ||ConstantImprovement: At patzer2:
Your line 21. ... Qf4: 22. Qe6 Qh6 actually is the game after move 24.
Black only seemed to decline the sacrifice, after 24. Rd5! the game transposes into the Accepted main line.
For your continuation:
23. Qd7+ Kf7 24. Rf5+ Kg6 was my main line.
I tried 25. Qe7:!? and 25. Re1.
After 25. Qe7: Kf5: I stopped after 26. g4+ Kf4, convinced that it is winning.
After 25. Re1 Ta(h)e8 26. Rd6+ Bf6 I was sure there was a winning combination.
I will analyse it now with Fritz 8:
Fritz does not see Bf4 at first glance.
Qh6 is the strongest answer, and our main line is followed until Kf7 (Kf8 as in the game is much worse).
Now the machine has the lines 25. Rf5+ and 25. Re1 as strongest lines, too.
25. Rf5+ continues like in my line: 25. ... Kg6 26. Qe7: Kf5: 27. g4+ Kf4 28. Qe4+ Kg5 29. f4+ Kg4: (I had considered this, too) and now 30. Kh1 seals it.
25. Re1 is a mistake Rhe8 26. Rf5+ Kg8!
(Kg6? 27. Qd3 [I thought about that typical threat of a discovered check, too, but thought that it was not really
forcing enough] or 27. Rfe5 with +2.00.) My line 27. Rd6+ indeed can not break through against Bf6. White has nothing better than 28. Rff6:+ (only that keeps the advantage) gf and 29. Re8:, but 29. ... Qc1+ is very drawish.
So Bf4 is indeed winning, but only after some precise moves.
Qh6 was not easy to see, as was Qe7:.
|Nov-11-07|| ||Jimfromprovidence: I reviewed both <patzer2’s> and <ConstantImprovement’s> postings. Their analyses is
I believe <ConstantImprovement> got it right. This is what they said.
<patzer2: White's best may be to force a draw by perpetual after 21. Bf4 Qxf4 22. Qxe6 Qh6 23. Qd7+ Kf7 24. Rf5+ Kg6 25. Re5 Bf6 26. Qf5+ Kf7 27. Qe6+ Kg6 28. Qf5 =.>
<ConstantImprovement 24. Rf5+ continues like in my line: 24. ... Kg6 25. Qe7: Kf5: 26. g4+ Kf4 27. Qe4+ Kg5 28. f4+ Kg4: (I had considered this, too) and now 29. Kh1 seals it.>
(I changed the numeration posted by <ConstantImprovement>, which is off by one move.)
What <ConstantImprovement> does not say is that after 29 Kh1 29…Kh4 30 Rg1 Rae8 31 Qf3 wins for white.
<patzer2> assumed that white would not play 25 Qxe7.
I wish I knew how they came up with these lines, they are exceptional.
|Nov-11-07|| ||TopaLove: <Alphastar> Are u <dzechiel>´s fan? You copied the way he talks. In my languague we call people like you <paga-pau>. Too bad I dont know a similar word in english.|
|Nov-12-07|| ||kevin86: It looks like the queen is chased away so that white's heavy pieces can round up the poor,beleaguered king.|
|Nov-13-07|| ||patzer2: <constant improvement> <jimfromprovidence> Thanks! Looks like I
did transpose and enter the game continuation for one move after 21. Bf4 Qxf4 22. Qxe6 Qh6 23. Qd7+ (Transposing to the position in the game after 25. Qd7+). However the line immediately differs with 25...Kf7 on the next move.|
More importantly, it would appear White does indeed win after 21. Bf4!! Qxf4 22. Qxe6 Qh6 23. Qd7+ Kf7 24. Rf5+ Kg6 with <ConstantImprovement>'s <25. Qxe7! Kf5 26. g4+! Kf4 27. Qe4+ Kg5 28. f4+! Kg4 29. Kh1! .>
P.S.: The line was my own attempt without a chess computer, which is obviously no match for the improvement found here by <ConstantImprovement>
using Fritz 8.
|Nov-14-07|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <patzer2> <ConstantImprovement> You both should be commended, <patzer2> for your creativity in proposing your alternative and <ConstantImprovement> for his pursuit and ultimately obtaining the correct solution.|
I don’t think I would have had the courage to play 25. Qxe7 (having to sacrifice a rook at f5) or the foresight to see 29 Kh1.
There’s also a variation of this line that leads to a queen for rook exchange instead of forced mate.
Instead of 26… Kf4 try 26… Kg6. Then 27 f4 Raf8 28 f5+ Rxf5 29 Rxf5 Qc1+ 30 Rf1 Qxf1+ 31 Kxf1 completes the exchange.
|Nov-18-07|| ||Alphastar: <TopaLove: Alphastar Are u dzechiel´s fan? You copied the way he talks. In my languague we call people like you paga-pau. Too bad I dont know a similar word in english.>|
I make my comments without looking at what people already commented. I can't help it he thinks the same way as I do. Also, I won't take any people who use both <you> and <u> seriously anymore. Please look in the mirror before accusing me of beeing "<dzechiel>'s fan".
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