chessgames.com
Members · Prefs · Laboratory · Collections · Openings · Endgames · Sacrifices · History · Search Kibitzing · Kibitzer's Café · Chessforums · Tournament Index · Players · Kibitzing

Vladimir Kramnik vs Alexey Shirov
Tal Memorial (2007), Moscow RUS, rd 5, Nov-14
Catalan Opening: Closed Variation (E06)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

Click Here to play Guess-the-Move
Given 21 times; par: 86 [what's this?]

explore this opening
find similar games 91 more Kramnik/Shirov games
PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

TIP: You should register a free account to activate some of Chessgames.com's coolest and most powerful features.

PGN Viewer:  What is this?
For help with this chess viewer, please see the Olga Chess Viewer Quickstart Guide.
PREMIUM MEMBERS CAN REQUEST COMPUTER ANALYSIS [more info]

A COMPUTER ANNOTATED SCORE OF THIS GAME IS AVAILABLE.  [CLICK HERE]

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Nov-15-07  Kasparov Fan01: I think we can all appreciate why Kasparov lost in 2000. Kramnik is a positional GOD, if he is playing on song then he is almost impossible to beat.

From relatively drawish positions he can turn into wins!!

Very impressive..I'm guessing he will regain his crown against Anand in 2008 :)

Nov-15-07  TITIKIZA: Shirov was in time trouble as early as move 18. he should work on his time management. This game was supposed to draw until he made a blunder on move 38. f4 gxf4 leaving two pawns against one on the king side.
Nov-15-07  Karpova: <goldenbear: 44.b4? might throw away the win, for example, Ng6 45.Nf5 Kc7.> 44.b4 Ng6 45.Ng4 might be better than 45.Nf5 Nf4
Nov-15-07  KamikazeAttack: I have to say it is always a joy to see Kasparov, Anand & Kramnik handle the endgame.

Kramnik gave some brilliant exhibitions in Elista.

Nov-15-07  KamikazeAttack: <TITIKIZA: Shirov was in time trouble as early as move 18. he should work on his time management. This game was supposed to draw until he made a blunder on move 38. f4 gxf4 leaving two pawns against one on the king side>

The game may have been a draw objectively, but this view doesn't paint the whole picture of what is happening ... it is quite simplistic as it doesn't take into account the pressure, problems and questions being asked by one player from the other.

One when these questions are answered correctly would the draw be realised.

Nov-15-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: <goldenbear: <42.Nxd5 is simpler, straight up winning the h-pawn (or else a won king endgame), but even world champions know not to trust king and pawn endgames. >>

I disagree with your statement as <42...Nxd5 43.exd5 Ke7> leads only to a drawn ♙endgame.


click for larger view

Nov-15-07  KamikazeAttack: I ma glad to report that the cold war between Kramnik and Shirov is over.

Have a look at this clip from CB http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...

In fact I see mutual respect and great civility between the 2 great players.

Nov-15-07  SickedChess: http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?...
Interesting:
1. Kramnik and Shirov shake hands!
2. The hot blonde girl
that accompanies to Shirov is not his wife Cmylite!
Nov-15-07  fromoort: I don't think Victoria is his wife anymore.
Nov-15-07  goldenbear: <whiteshark> I was hoping someone who knows how to do those diagrams would post that position, so thank you. In that diagram a3! wins either the b-pawn or the e-pawn or else white will queen his passed g-pawn. For example, a3 Kf6 h4 h6 Kd3 is zugszwang. Or a3 Kf6 h4 e4 Kd4 e3 Kxe3 Ke5 g5, and black liquidates the kingside pawns but loses his b-pawn.
Nov-15-07  acirce: <I was hoping someone who knows how to do those diagrams would post that position, so thank you. In that diagram a3! wins either the b-pawn or the e-pawn or else white will queen his passed g-pawn.>

Nope, it's a total draw -- Black's protected passed pawn offsets White's majority, and White does not have time to go for the b-pawn.

<For example, a3 Kf6 h4 h6 Kd3 is zugszwang.>

How do you figure White is going to win after for example ..Kg6 ?

Nov-15-07  goldenbear: <acirce> I guess I could be wrong (not very suprising) but Kg6 Kc3 Kf6 Kb4 e4 Kc3 Ke5 Kd2 is zugszwang, isn't it?
Nov-15-07  acirce: <I guess I could be wrong (not very suprising) but Kg6 Kc3 Kf6 Kb4 e4 Kc3 Ke5 Kd2 is zugszwang, isn't it?>

Here Black even wins after Kxd5:


click for larger view

illustrating what I said about White not having time to go for the b-pawn.

So he can't do this, and Black can't do anything either. The pawn endgame is dead drawn.

Nov-15-07  goldenbear: <acirce> Difficult for me to believe, but it would seem you are right. Black has time for Kxd5. This is why I don't play silly openings like the Catalan, by the way. My instincts are often wrong about the evaluation. The up-side is that I still have never lost a tournament game after e4 c5 b4! though.
Nov-15-07  goldenbear: <Karpova> No doubt you are right about that.
Nov-15-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: <SickedChess <2. The hot blonde girl >>

This 'pink pullover' put him in a vegetative state.

Good camera work!

Nov-15-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: <44.b4? might throw away the win> On the contrary, 44. b4!! initiates a winning passed pawn combination. Per Malcom Pein's analysis at http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/event/t..., White wins after <44.b4! axb3 45.axb3 Ka5 [45...Kc5 46.b4+; 45...Ng6 46.Ng4 Nf4 47.Nf6 followed by h4 and if 47...Ne2+ 48.Kd3 Nf4+ 49.Ke4 Kc5 50.Nxh7 Nxd5 51.g6 Ne7 52.g7 Ng8 53.Kf5 and Nf6 winning] 46.h4 Ng6 47.h5 Nf4 48.g6 hxg6 49.h6 g5 50.h7 Ng6 51.Kd3 [Shirov resigned in view of 51.Kd3 Kb4 52.Ke4 Kxb3 53.Kf5 Nh8 54.Kf6 Kc3 55.Kg7 b4 56.Kxh8 b3 57.Kg7 b2 58.Nd1+ Kc2 59.Nxb2] 1-O.>
Nov-16-07  notyetagm: <parisattack: ... I just can't figure out why the others keep playing into his strength? KID, anyone?>

Not that simple. Most players do not have the KID in their repertoire. Of the top players, only Radjabov and Topalov play the KID on a regular basis, especially Radjabov, who is the king of King's Indian.

Nov-16-07  ongyj: <parisattack: ... I just can't figure out why the others keep playing into his strength? KID, anyone?> Moreover, playing into your opponent's strength actually makes you a better player. If a 'positional' player sticks to positional play, his/her tactics would never improve. The same applies otherwise. It's a good learning experience, you know=) Kramnik once again demonstrates his strength in his Pet Catalan!
Nov-16-07  KamikazeAttack: notyetagm, I am looking forward to Kramnik taking on Radja's KID on a regular basis. Am ssure u r too.

Having seen the superb work Radja has put into the KID, 'am sure Kramnik has done some work and has something that is "not nice" for that little runt:).

Nov-16-07  qskakaley: Is it just me, or doesn't Magnus' draw against Kramnik's Catalan earlier look even more impressive with the way Kramnik has been playing with it? I believe Kramnik said in an interview after that match that he believed that his own play was without fault, and that Magnus' play was just too good for a win with White...Too bad Magnus lost today...
Dec-12-07  jagdish tripathi: Kramnick is the Real World Champion. i am fascinated how he defeated leko in previous game
Dec-12-07  cotdt: <jagdish tripathi: Kramnick is the Real World Champion. i am fascinated how he defeated leko in previous game> According to Shirov, Kramnik has never been the World Champion in the first place.
Dec-12-07  skychess: What about 48. ... Nxg6? Sacrificing the N could force a draw; even a win for the black.
Mar-22-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Peligroso Patzer: I believe that in the position after <41. … Ncxd5+>, as follows:


click for larger view

it is generally considered that Kramnik played the correct recapture (<42. exd5>), but the question whether <42. Nxd5> might actually have been stronger is not as simple as may at first appear.

At first I thought the matter was simple on the basis of the assumption that White had to avoid a pawn ending in which Black had a protected passer, as would arise after a hypothetical <42. Nxd5 Nxd5 43. exd5>, yielding this position (in which, seemingly, neither side can make progress):


click for larger view

Upon a little further consideration, however, I began to think the above position should actually be easily winning for White, due to (i) his K-side majority; (ii) the fact that Black cannot safely advance his passed pawn (provided, of course, the White King stays in the “square” of that pawn, and (iii) the weak b4 square in Black’s Q-side pawn position. The third factor enumerated above seemingly can be exploited by White since, if he brings his King to b4 and subsequently captures on b5, he will at all times remain within the square of the e5 passer. Further analysis, however, revealed this reasoning to be flawed.

The fallacy in the thinking set forth in the previous paragraph is that, if White runs his King over to capture the b-pawn, Black has time to generate counterplay by bringing his King to f6, then pushing … e5-e4, and finally playing … Kf6-e5 and … Ke5xd5, getting central connected passers. The following line, for example, <wins> for Black: <42.Nxd5 Nxd5+ 43.exd5 Ke7 44.Kb4 Kf6 45.h4 e4 46.Kc3 Ke5>< >. Accordingly, in this line, after <43. ... Ke7>, White must play something like <44. Kd3>, abandoning his hopes of invading on the Q-side.

So (not surprisingly) Kramnik’s choice (<42. exd5>) was correct, but there are more subtleties in the position than were at first apparent.

search thread:   
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
NOTE: You need to pick a username and password to post a reply. Getting your account takes less than a minute, is totally anonymous, and 100% free—plus, it entitles you to features otherwise unavailable. Pick your username now and join the chessgames community!
If you already have an account, you should login now.
Please observe our posting guidelines:
  1. No obscene, racist, sexist, profane, raunchy, or disgusting language.
  2. No spamming, advertising, duplicate or nonsense posts.
  3. No malicious personal attacks, including cyber stalking, systematic antagonism, or gratuitous name-calling of any member Iincludinfgall Admin and Owners or any of their family, friends, associates, or business interests. If you think someone is an idiot, then provide evidence that their reasoning is invalid and/or idiotic, instead of just calling them an idiot. It's a subtle but important distinction, even in political discussions.
  4. Nothing in violation of United States law.
  5. No malicious posting of or linking to personal, private, and/or negative information (aka "doxing" or "doxxing") about any member, (including all Admin and Owners) or any of their family, friends, associates, or business interests. This includes all media: text, images, video, audio, or otherwise. Such actions will result in severe sanctions for any violators.
  6. NO TROLLING. Admin and Owners know it when they see it, and sanctions for any trolls will be significant.
  7. Any off-topic posts which distract from the primary topic of discussion are subject to removal.
  8. The use of "sock puppet" accounts to circumvent disciplinary action taken by Moderators is expressly prohibited.
  9. The use of "sock puppet" accounts in an attempt to undermine any side of a debate—or to create a false impression of consensus or support—is prohibited.
  10. All decisions with respect to deleting posts, and any subsequent discipline, are final, and occur at the sole discretion of the Moderators, Admin, and Owners.
  11. Please try to maintain a semblance of civility at all times.
Blow the Whistle See something that violates our rules? Blow the whistle and inform a Moderator.

NOTE: Keep all discussion on the topic of this page. This forum is for this specific game and nothing else. If you want to discuss chess in general, or this site, visit the Kibitzer's Café.

Messages posted by Chessgames members do not necessarily represent the views of Chessgames.com, its employees, or sponsors. All Moderator actions taken are at the sole discretion of the Admin and Owners—who will strive to act fairly and consistently at all times.

This game is type: CLASSICAL. Please report incorrect or missing information by submitting a correction slip to help us improve the quality of our content.

Featured in the Following Game Collections[what is this?]
d4 : Catalan Opening
by ISeth
Cushion's favorite games
by Cushion
Endgame mastery: N vs N ending
from Vladimir Kramnik - Immortal masterpieces by JoseTigranTalFischer
Fire on Board 4: Self-Immolation
by arkansaw
Catalan Opening: Closed (E06) 1-0Knights ending w/h-pawn passer
from yKnights Add Spice V More Fredthebear Jive by fredthebear
Amorphous Codeine's favorite games
by Amorphous Codeine
Vladimir Kramnik's Best Games
by alip
Catalan
by KingG
The QGD/Slav/Semi-Slav by Zhbugnoimt
by fredthebear
Catalan Opening
by ALL
Book of Samurai's favorite games 6
by Book of Samurai
Vladimir Kramnik's Best Games
by KingG
Echoside's favorite games
by Echoside
Endgame mastery: N vs N ending
from Vladimir Kramnik - Immortal masterpieces by Karpova
The Greatest Ever Chess Endgames
by brucemubayiwa
sem comentar
from Grupo 1 by cappanegra
Instructive Endgames
by ALL
Catalan Endgame
from nikki catalan by nikkiurbz


home | about | login | logout | F.A.Q. | your profile | preferences | Premium Membership | Kibitzer's Café | Biographer's Bistro | new kibitzing | chessforums | Tournament Index | Player Directory | Notable Games | World Chess Championships | Opening Explorer | Guess the Move | Game Collections | ChessBookie Game | Chessgames Challenge | Store | privacy notice | contact us
Copyright 2001-2019, Chessgames Services LLC