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Shakhriyar Mamedyarov vs Magnus Carlsen
Corus (2008), Wijk aan Zee NED, rd 1, Jan-12
Sicilian Defense: Old Sicilian. General (B30)  ·  0-1
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Given 13 times; par: 71 [what's this?]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jan-12-08  Kaspablanca: i am amazed many kibitzers here HAVENT SEEN THE EASY CONTINUATION FOR BLACK!! If 41. b3 then Rd8!! is decisive, bear in mind that black can also move Kf7 to catch the knight.
Jan-12-08  Kaspablanca: I forgot to say that after Rd8 black is threating Rd2 to win the bishop.
Jan-13-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Calli: Well, uhh, I am amazed at your amazement at our amazement of the resignation :-)

But maybe its because we have neglected to post the actual line here, so

40.Rxa4 Ne3 41.b3 Rd8 42.Kg1 Rd2 43.Bh1 and nobody can figure out the clear win.

Jan-13-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  tamar: <Kaspablanca> In the old days, Black would get the brilliancy prize only to have an obscure Russian expert find the draw two days later.

Now however, five minutes later a thousand engines find a unlikely sequence of King and bishop moves that suggest White can survive despite the rook infiltration, and despite appearances. 41 b3 Rd8 42 Kg1 Rd2 43 Bh1


click for larger view

Jan-13-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Calli: "In the old days, Black would get the brilliancy prize only to have an obscure Russian expert find the draw two days later."

However, "In the old days" players rarely resigned till the move before mate. Had Mamedyarov continued a couple of moves, Bh1 surely would have occurred to him.

The threat was definitely worse than the execution in this case!

Jan-13-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  ganstaman: <rover> Hmmm, things to think about. Let's see how it turns out in a few days.

<Kaspablanca: i am amazed many kibitzers here HAVENT SEEN THE EASY CONTINUATION FOR BLACK!! If 41. b3 then Rd8!! is decisive, bear in mind that black can also move Kf7 to catch the knight.>

Wow, good thing you read the posts before deciding what they did and didn't have in them.

Also, is the knight really trapped? It can always go to f4 to escape being lost altogether, right?

Jan-13-08  Kaspablanca: Anyways white position is cramped, although white have a bishop in the board black have a piece up because the bishop cant move without losing it. After Bh1 black can continue with Bxc3 threating Bd4. All i see is that Mamedyarov resignation was not premature.
Jan-13-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  tamar: The upside is that we now know that neither player is toting Rybka lip balm.
Jan-13-08  cheski: <rover: >

It would have been more interesting to us viewers if the Mame-Carlsen match had been continued rather than the Radja-Anand one.

I think there was a lot of life left in this here game after <41.b3 Rd8 42.Kg1 Rd2 43.Bh1> as suggested by Xaurus with his Rybka engine.

At this point there are some interesting deviations for move 43...*

It would be nice to know which way Carlsen would have gone at this junction. Rc2? Bxc3? Nd1 ?Rd1? I would assume that the 43....Nd1 line would be hardest for White to meet. Want to play it out?

Jan-13-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  notyetagm: From http://www.chessninja.com/dailydirt...

<It was early to resign and some of the afritzionados insisted that White's position wasn't even worse. Carlsen said afterwards that he was sure he was winning. A computer might find a way to grovel on for a while without losing a piece to a rook infiltration, but it's long-term ugly.>

So Magnus says this is a win. Period.

<I just spent quite a bit of time on Mamedyarov-Carlsen with Rybka 2.3.2a. In the lines that I tested, I played Rybka's suggestions for White and Black. In all cases, the assessment steadily deteriorated for White into a complete loss.

From the human point of view (I'm a master but obviously the Corus players are vastly stronger) it looks very difficult for White. His Bishop and Knight are simply bad, and his Rook isn't doing much. Meanwhile, Black's Rook penetrates and his pieces dominate the board.

But strictly from Rybka's point of view, the assessment goes down-down-down for White as you play through the recommended lines.

Posted by: ComputoJon at January 12, 2008 21:03 >

By playing out the best moves for White and Black suggested by Rybka 2.3.2a, White's position simply steadily decreases.

I mean, just -look- at the position!


click for larger view

Does anyone really think White can survive this?

2760-rated Mamedyarov thought not and resigned while chess super-prodigy 2733-rated Magnus Carlsen agreed with Mamedyarov's assessment.

Jan-13-08  TheBB: <notyetagm>

<Does anyone really think White can survive this?

2760-rated Mamedyarov thought not and resigned while chess super-prodigy 2733-rated Magnus Carlsen agreed with Mamedyarov's assessment.>

A bit early to say that. In fact we don't know if any of them even considered the position given.

Jan-13-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  notyetagm: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...

Position after 40 ... ♘c4-e3 0-1?????:


click for larger view

Hmm, well GM Marin says that the above position is -not- an obvious win for Black.

<White's decision to resign looks at least premature. I admit, his position does not look too appealing, but... nobody has ever improved his situation by resigning. Both players were probably convinced that the g2-bishop will be lost soon, but this is more of an illusion. After 41.b3 Rd8 White has 42.Kg1 Rd2 43.Bh1 when he is very much alive yet.


click for larger view

Things would change if the black king could be activated quickly via g6 (and if Nf4, then ...Bxf4 gxf4 and ...Kxh4), but after 43...Kf7 White can question the stability of the enemy bishop with 44.Ra5 . Otherwise, White would play 44.Ra7, cutting the enemy king away and intending to advance of the a-pawn as far as he can, or exchange the dominating bishop with Ng7. 0-1.>

Jan-13-08  Ulhumbrus: Here is Marin's comment on Mamedyarov's resignation: <White's decision to resign looks at least premature. I admit, his position does not look too appealing, but... nobody has ever improved his situation by resigning. Both players were probably convinced that the g2-bishop will be lost soon, but this is more of an illusion. After 41.b3 Rd8 White has 42.Kg1 Rd2 43.Bh1 when he is very much alive yet.

Things would change if the black king could be activated quickly via g6 (and if Nf4, then ...Bxf4 gxf4 and ...Kxh4), but after 43...Kf7 White can question the stability of the enemy bishop with 44.Ra5 . Otherwise, White would play 44.Ra7, cutting the enemy king away and intending to advance of the a-pawn as far as he can, or exchange the dominating bishop with Ng7. 0-1. >

The point of 42 Kg1!! is that on 42...Rd1+ 43 Kf2 counterattacks the black N on e3. Mamedyarov may have overlooked that although he could not save his KB, he could make a counterattack on Black's N in return.

Jan-13-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  notyetagm: http://www.coruschess.com/report.ph...

<Thus he liked his 11…c4!, gaining play on the queen’s side.>


click for larger view

<Note that white cannot defend the extra c pawn, as if he was to try 13.Qd3 Rc8 14.b3 then black strikes with the strong 14…b5!.>


click for larger view

Jan-14-08  Riverbeast: <White's decision to resign looks at least premature. I admit, his position does not look too appealing, but... nobody has ever improved his situation by resigning. Both players were probably convinced that the g2-bishop will be lost soon, but this is more of an illusion. After 41.b3 Rd8 White has 42.Kg1 Rd2 43.Bh1 when he is very much alive yet.>

In that position, what happens after the simple 43...Bxc3 (threatening 44...Bd4) 44. Nf4 Kf7?

45...Bd4 is still coming. White looks dead as a doornail. Am I missing something?

Jan-14-08  djmercury: <40.Rxa4 Ne3 41.b3 Rd8 42.Kg1 Rd2 43.Bh1 and nobody can figure out the clear win.> Bxc3 44. Ra7 Be5 45. Ng7+ Kd8 46. Nxe6+ Kc8 47. Ra8+ Kb7 48. Rd8

Here black has so many good moves available is not even funny:


click for larger view

Rxa2 49. Rg2 h5 50. Nf4 Ra1+ 51. Kh2 Nf1+ 52. Kg2 Nd2 followed by Bd4-Rg1+ and white will still loose his bishop.

Jan-15-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  notyetagm: So, has there been any final verdict yet from the top GMs about whether or not White can hold the final position?

Thanks

Jan-15-08  Gnappo: In my opinion this is a draw... White can defend easily this position. f.e. 41.b3 Rd8 (that Kaspablanca defined "decisive") 42. Ra6 Ke7 43.Ra7+ Ke8 44.Kg1 Rd2 45.Bh1 White Bishop is safe, and Black King cannot leave the 8th rank.
Jan-15-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  alexmagnus: <Gnappo> 42...Kf7 in your line...
Jan-19-08  minasina: http://www.chessdom.com/corus-chess... This was live commentary with IM Miodrag Perunovic
Jan-28-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: This is a wonderful game by Carlsen - his early c4 broke the central pawns -then he used his knights and pieces until White was effectively in a positional zuzgwang as he is here at the end - when I first (just now) looked at this game I wondered why he resigned - but the W rook is out of play and Black has control of the d file and shortly he will get to the 7th rank and also the W B is blocked and the W knight is in a bad position while Black's peices are all ready to strike!!

<Gnappo: In my opinion this is a draw... White can defend easily this position. f.e. 41.b3 Rd8 (that Kaspablanca defined "decisive") 42. Ra6 Ke7 43.Ra7+ Ke8 44.Kg1 Rd2 45.Bh1 White Bishop is safe, and Black King cannot leave the 8th rank.>

This is wrong - after 42 Ra6 Kf7 43 Ra7+ Kg6 44 Nf4+ Bxf4 45 gxf4 Kh5 46 Kg1 Re2 47 Bh1 Kxh4 the Black K goes to g3 and soon W is mated. And 43 Kg1 Rd2 looks too strong for Black.

Jan-30-08  minasina: <FREE Video "Game of the Day". Each day one of the ICC Chess.FM GMs will provide a Game of the Day video.> This with GM Larry Christiansen here: http://webcast.chessclub.com/Corus0...
Jul-14-08  kamalakanta: Another possible line is
41.Ra6 Ke7 42.Ra7+ Kf8 43.b3 Rd8 44.Kg1 Rd2 45.Bh1 Nd1 46.Nf4 Bxf4 47.gxf4 Nxc3 48.e5 Rxa2 49.Rxa2 Nxa2 50.Be4 Nc1 51.Bc2 Ne2+ 52.Kf2 Nd4 53.Bd1 h5 and Black is winning.
Mar-02-10  kingsindian2006: magnus played amazing with his knights in this game and put white on defense whole way through after 11....C4
Sep-23-12  Bader AlHajiri: <White's decision to resign looks at least premature. I admit, his position does not look too appealing, but... nobody has ever improved his situation by resigning. Both players were probably convinced that the g2-bishop will be lost soon, but this is more of an illusion. After 41.b3 Rd8 White has 42.Kg1 Rd2 43.Bh1 when he is very much alive yet.> according to Deep Rybka 4 SSE42 x64 the final position is indeed winning for Black! 43... Nd1! 44.Ra7 Nxc3 45.Ng7+ Bxg7 46.Rxg7 Ne2+ 47.Kf2 Nd4+ 48.Kg1 Rd1+ 49.Kg2 h5 50.Rg5 Nf3 51.Rxh5 e5 and White loses his Bishop!
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