< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 9 OF 9 ·
|Jan-27-08|| ||Ulhumbrus: <Ron: <Ulhumbrus> At move 57, Re5 is an illegal move. If you mean Rf5 (and I make typos--too many) then play could go 57. ... Rh1+ 58. Ka2 d4+>
< Eyal: <Ulhumbrus: An alternative to 57 Qa8 is 57 Re5 overpowering the d pawn. On 57...Rd2 58 Rh5+ Kg7 59 Qh6+ forks the K and R.>
I suppose that should be 57.Rf5 - instead of 57...Rd2?? Black can play 57...Rh6 and force White to exchange queens if he wants to win the d-pawn (58.Qb7 Rh7 59.Qb3 d4) - after which we get an essentially similar position to the one that arose in the game.>|
Yes I mean 57 Rf5. On 57 Rf5 Rh1+ 58 Kh2 d4+ 59 c4 Black's K remains exposed to attack. On 57 Rf5 Rh6 58 Qb5 Black's K remains exposed to attack eg 58...Rd6 59 Rh6+
I believe that it is a mistake for White to exchange Queens in order to win a pawn, because the lack of safety for Black's King is worth much more to White than a pawn. That suggests that White has the advantage if he makes no attempt to win a pawn but if he keeps Black's King exposed to attack.
|Jan-27-08|| ||sheaf: before I am attacked by zealots again let me say the following; black had to earn a draw before anand gave it away by kb1, which is absolutely innocuous . now think of it this way, how does black create counter play, marching the g pawn mindlessly strips the black king naked and with heavy pieces on board thats not a wise idea. he has to exchange queens sometime to get g pawn rolling but i mean isnt 'a' pawn more dangerous than 'g' pawn with best blockading piece, king, far off from action? i know some self proclaimed genius out of nowhere will call it a patzer analysis... but the fact is I am convinced that I can win a good percentage of the games with this position, after 53. Qxa7 against 2200 players, ~ 200 pts above my peak playing strength, without EVER losing one game says something about the strength of the position. Anyway, I am reasonably sure that kramnik would have defended tenaciously but it was really a very difficult task ahead.|
|Jan-27-08|| ||minasina: http://chesspro.ru/chessonline/onli...
This was LIVE commentary (in Russian) (“Translated”: http://www.google.com/translate?u=h...
The board is not functioning at the translated page)
GM Sergei Shipov ‘s commentary (in Russian) includes also commentary for the game Carlsen vs Radjabov, 2008
|Jan-27-08|| ||KamikazeAttack: Thx a lot minasian.
Ur regular contributions with those links throughout the tournament was very generous and thoughtful.
|Jan-27-08|| ||minasina: <KamikazeAttack> welcome :)|
|Jan-27-08|| ||Eyal: <Ulhumbrus: On 57 Rf5 Rh6 58 Qb5 Black's K remains exposed to attack eg 58...Rd6 59 Rh6+|
I believe that it is a mistake for White to exchange Queens in order to win a pawn, because the lack of safety for Black's King is worth much more to White than a pawn. That suggests that White has the advantage if he makes no attempt to win a pawn but if he keeps Black's King exposed to attack.>
In practical terms I agree that keeping the queens on might have given White somewhat better chances (you were the one talking earlier of "overcoming the d-pawn"). But if Black plays accurately and avoids such blunders as 57...Rd2 in that previous line, it seems that with a piece down White just doesn't have enough fire power left to capitalize on the exposed position of the Black king. I've played with this position for a while with my engine (and engines are very efficient in calculating long lines in such wide-open positions) and the evaluation stubbornly stays in the 0.00 zone. It seems that if Anand had real winning chances in this game, he blew them away back on moves 50-51.
|Jan-28-08|| ||you vs yourself: Kramnik: "You know I'm getting my title back, right?" http://www.coruschess.com/year/2008...|
|Jan-28-08|| ||Open Defence: or <the cameras are getting this right ? I shook his hand>|
|Jan-28-08|| ||arjunkakar: well atleast no one can now complain that kramnik and anand settled for a quick draw. This game wasent short of drama. Anand went for a win and Full marks to kramnik for holding on. One doesnt mind draws if they are well fought out..like was this game.|
|Jan-28-08|| ||Ulhumbrus: Eyal> On 57 Rf5 Rh6 58 Qb5 attacks the d5 pawn twice. That is an overpowering attack as it stands, unless Black either exposes himself on the h file in order to defend the pawn a second time by 58...Rd6, or else moves the pawn . On 58...d4 59 c4 White has a passed c- pawn and Black's King and d4 pawn remain still exposed to attack. I suspect that White may end up winning this, although it could be very difficult. If Black's King alone were a target, White's Q and R might not be able to do much, but if Black's pieces are burdened with other tasks in addition to the defence of the King- defending the a and d pawns and watching a White passed pawn - that may be too much. However it is possible that if with best play White does win, he does so barely ( eg by a single tempo) and with great difficulty, employing some resource or plan which takes masterly knowledge and skill to conceive. As for computer evaluations, they may change from move to move simply because the computer's horizon produces a evaluation of a different set of positions at each move. It is possible that with best play ( = knowledgeable and skilled play to the degree of mastery, and so possibly very difficult and unobvious play ) on the part of White, after a long time, the computer evaluation will at some point change suddenly from equality to an advantage for White.|
|Jan-28-08|| ||VishyFan: According to the kibitzing Kasparov, 57.Qc8 was probably Anand's last chance for an advantage...|
that would have essentially got another pawn for Anand.....
|Jan-28-08|| ||Eyal: <Ulhumbrus: On 57 Rf5 Rh6 58 Qb5 attacks the d5 pawn twice. That is an overpowering attack as it stands, unless Black either exposes himself on the h file in order to defend the pawn a second time by 58...Rd6, or else moves the pawn . On 58...d4 59 c4 White has a passed c- pawn and Black's King and d4 pawn remain still exposed to attack.> Actually after 58.Qb5 there are other options as well, such as 58...a6 (again, forcing White to exchange queens if he wants to win the d-pawn straight away). But let's say Black wants to advance the pawn - since 58...d4 immediately gives White the option to simply take it (though 59.cxd4 Rh1+ does force an exchange of rooks), a better way to do it is probably by 58...Rh1+ 59.Ka2 d4+ 60.c4 Rh6. I believe Black's position is solid enough here - note that on d4 the pawn is much less exposed to attack because it's on a dark square and so can be protected by the bishop. But in any case, this is an argument about the long-term evaluation of the position which can't really be solved by discussing specific variations since there are too many of them. The best way to test it would probably be to see Anand and Kramnik actually playing it out...|
|Jan-28-08|| ||Ulhumbrus: <Eyal> On 57 Rf5 Rh6 58 Qb5 a6 59 Qa5 maintains the attack, and on 59...Rh1+ 60 Ka2 d4+ 61 b3 bxc3 62 Qxa6 Black's problems may remain. On 57 Rf5 Rh6 58 Qb5 Rh1+ 59 Ka2 d4+ 60 c4 Rh6 61 Rd5 Bg7 62 Qd7 Black's B does defend the d4 pawn, but it seems to do not much more, while Black's Q and R have the task of keeping the c pawn back as well as defending a King which lacks pawn cover, perhaps too great a task. If White does not try too hard to gain a third pawn for the bishop and if White does not confine himself to the most direct attacks or threats, but is able and willing to play more indirectly as well ( eg Rd5 and Qd7) Black may lose. One interesting question is what what Anand considered the exposure of Black's King to be worth. I suggest that if White plays his cards right, the exposure of Black's King is worth more to White more than a gaining third pawn for the bishop is worth to White.|
|Jan-28-08|| ||Eyal: <One interesting question is what Anand considered the exposure of Black's King to be worth.> Well, quite obviously not enough to play for a win at this stage, otherwise he wouldn't have gone for the quick exchange of queens... I haven't seen any comment from Anand on this game, but I wouldn't be surprised if when playing 51.Kb1? instead of Rd1 he missed in his calculations 54...Qg2 (the only saving move) and was expecting Kramnik to resign at this stage, and when finding out his mistake became demoralized.|
|Jan-28-08|| ||sheaf: <Eyal> i dont think anand missed Qg2 mainly because its just too obvious to miss.besides what they played upto Qg2 is absolutely forced and only moves for black, so I can not believe that anand could have missed a three move deep absolutely forced line. Now, what i actually think is that anand didn't really like the idea of putting his rook on a passive square,( i have followed him for a long time; both him and kasparov just hate to play passively.) after Rd1, at least optically the only active piece that white has is his queen, rest of the pieces ar jammed, of course ugly placement of black king is compensating for that, but anand might have thought that poor placement of his dark square bishop and rook will give black enough time to create counterplay, but i guess he was wrong in his evaluation, while i know that the position is a forced win, but this position is almost impossible to hold in correspondence chess or computer, one can really try fritz 11, or another decent endgame engine, to play a few games with itself and see what happens i doubt black can hold even one game|
|Jan-29-08|| ||timhortons: had anand won these he should have the first place... win or loss for kramnik these really will not affect his standing in the tournament,i hope in the coming linares more of these line well be played and home prep again well matter|
|Jan-29-08|| ||Eyal: This was certainly an interesting prelude to the upcoming match between the two, where - if Anand sticks to 1.e4 - we might see several more Nimzo-Petrovs. And even though Anand didn't win this, at least he did manage to put Kramnik under considerable pressure. It seems that Kramnik's troubles were mainly caused by 43...R8e6? 43.Rg4 threatens hxg6 followed by Rh4, so bringing a rook to e6 is a good idea - only Kramnik does it with the wrong rook. After 43...R<2>e6 44.hxg6 Rxg6 45.Rxg6 fxg6, 46.Be3 still threatens Bd4 - but not Qe6+/c8+ as in the game, so Black would be able to defend by 46...c5 and should probably be ok.|
|Jan-29-08|| ||timhortons: |
click for larger view
<eyal>id listened to grandmaster ronen har-zvi analysis of the game and youre right, in his commentary anand move the wrong rook, as he said by chess principle its right but in these circumstances it should have been the rook on e2 that was posted on e6
|Jan-29-08|| ||pankajdaga: I do not think Anand missed Rd1... I think Kramnik was in a bit of a time squeeze and Anand went for an all out attack with the bishop sacrifice...risky move but at least he showed some guts and played it. I am really looking forward to the match between these two chess giants!|
Well, cannot wait for Linares now... I will bet some chessbucks on Anand winning it second time in a row.
|Jan-31-08|| ||yalie: <pankajdaga: I do not think Anand missed Rd1... I think Kramnik was in a bit of a time squeeze and Anand went for an all out attack with the bishop sacrifice>|
yes I think he missed Qg2 from Kramnik .. any other move from Kramnik loses
|Jan-31-08|| ||yalie: btw .. I played through several lines with the comp and it does appear that Rd1 wins in all lines .. though it takes a while ... first the white queen eats some pawns, then there is a queen swap getting into a pawn up endgame (with a passed a pawn as well against black's passed g pawn), black has to sac the bishop to get the passed a pawn and then the white king, bishop and knight attack black's g-pawn winning it. After that it is elementary :)|
It does appear to be a clear win even with optimal play from black. White has no risk whatsoever with a safe king.
|Jan-31-08|| ||hitman84: <btw .. I played through several lines with the comp and it does appear that Rd1 wins in all lines .. though it takes a while ... first the white queen eats some pawns, then there is a queen swap getting into a pawn up endgame (with a passed a pawn as well against black's passed g pawn), black has to sac the bishop to get the passed a pawn and then the white king, bishop and knight attack black's g-pawn winning it. After that it is elementary :)>|
Could you post the lines ?
|Feb-11-08|| ||VishyFan: <yalie: btw .. I played through several lines with the comp and it does appear that Rd1 wins in all lines .. though it takes a while ... first the white queen eats some pawns, then there is a queen swap getting into a pawn up endgame (with a passed a pawn as well against black's passed g pawn), black has to sac the bishop to get the passed a pawn and then the white king, bishop and knight attack black's g-pawn winning it. After that it is elementary :)> Analyzed lines please...|
|Feb-15-08|| ||saggitarius: Peter Svidler was analysing the game on ICC. It was very interesting. Here are some lines mentioned by Peter:
32. Qe3 c6 (32...
Rd6 33. Bf4 Re6 34. Qd3 c6 35. Rg5 Qe2 36. Qh3 Bh6 (36... Rae8 37. h5 Bg7 38.
hxg6 fxg6 39. Qh7+ Kf7 40. Rhg1 Qe4 (40... Rh8 41. Rf5+) 41. Be5 Rxe5 42. Rf1+
Ke7 43. Qxg7+ Kd8) 37. Rg2 Qe1+ 38. Bc1 Bxc1 39. Rxe1 Rxe1 40. a3) (32... Bg7
33. Qh3 (33. Re1 d4 34. Qh3 Rd6 (34... Rd5 35. c4 Rf5 36. Re7 d3 37. cxd3 (37.
Qxd3 Rxg5 38. hxg5 Qxh1+) 37... Rf2) 35. c4 d3 36. cxd3 Rb6 37. Rh2) 33... Rd6
34. Bf4 Re6 35. Bxc7 Rae8 36. a3 d4) 33. Qh3 Rd6 34. Bf4 (34. Re1 d4) 34... Re6
35. Rg5 Qh8 (35... Qe2 36. h5 Bg7 37. hxg6 fxg6 38. Rg2 Qe4 39. Qh7+ Kf7 40.
Bh6 Qxg2 41. Qxg7+ Ke8) 36. h5 (36. a3 Rae8 37. Ka2 Bh6) 36... Rae8 37. Bd2 Bc5
(37... Re5 38. Rgg1) 38. Rg3 (38. a3 Be3 39. Bxe3 Rxe3 40. Qd7 R3e7 41. Qg4 Re4
42. Qg1 Qf6 43. hxg6 Re1+) 38... Re2 (38... Bf2 39. hxg6 (39. Rf3 Be1 40. Bc1
Qxh5 41. Qf1 Bh4) 39... Qxh3 40. Rgxh3 fxg6 41. Rh8+ Kf7 42. R8h7+ Kf6 43. Rxb7
Re2) 39. Kc1 (39. a3 Rxd2 40. Qd7) (39. Bc1 Re1 40. Rxe1 Rxe1 41. Qc8+ Bf8 42.
hxg6 Rxc1+ 43. Kxc1 Qh1+) 39... Qg7 40. a3 (40. hxg6 fxg6 41. Rxg6 (41. Rg4 Be3
) 41... Qxg6 42. Qh8+ Kf7) 40... Bd6 41. Rgg1 Bc5 42. Rg3 Bd6 43. Rg4
|Apr-19-19|| ||PJs Studio: What a powerful game. These two had some serious bar clearing tussles over the years! This one also didn’t disappoint.|
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