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Feb-17-08
 | | virginmind: <hovik2003> as i have posted today on the morelia-linares page, a move like 30.Bh4 was seen by fritz11 only at 22 ply as -3.47. before that ply, fritz was constantly giving 0.00 for 30.Bh4. during the games, i never have time to let fritz11 calculating that far, at around 17-18-19 ply i stop it and post the evaluation given. so, as you can see, an evaluation given during the game (with less time for the machine to "think") can be misleading. anyway, this is the first time i saw fritz 11 changing "his mind" with such a large extent. |
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Feb-17-08
 | | Bishoprick: A beautiful game for both players! It takes two to tango. . . and to play beautiful chess. |
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| Feb-17-08 | | harisankar: <29.Bb6 was the best move for Anand,
this is because after 29.Bb6,Re2 leads
to a draw.>
29.Bb6 will lead to 29.Bb6 fxg3! 30.hxg3(Nxg3 Bxg3 31.hxg3 Bg4 32.Ra8+ Kf7 33.f3 Bxf3 34.Rh8 Qg4  )(30.fxg3 Bxf1!! and similar lines of attack with idea of re2 possible ) 30.Bg4!! 31.Nh2 Be2 32.Qb1 Qg6 33.Nf1 Bxf1 34.Kxf1 Bxg3! 35.fxg3 Qxg3 .Now taking in rook is forced but it leads to a passed pawn which wins the game for black.)
Truly amazing calculation by Aronian..he shld have prepared this line in home for sure.. |
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Feb-17-08
 | | acirce: 30.Bh4 Rxd2 31.Ra8+ Bf8 32.Qxd2 Qf3 33.Rxf8+ Kh7! also deserves to be pointed out and now Black wins despite being a rook and two pawns down.
click for larger view34.Qc2+ g6 35.Rf7+ Kh6 and so on. |
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Feb-17-08
 | | Open Defence: this is a very deep game, the engines would have to run pretty long to find some of the ideas involved, good creative chess from Aronian, hope he wins the tournament and I can win <lostemperor's> contest :) |
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| Feb-17-08 | | AdrianP: I too think Anand must have missed the spectacular 30. ...Re3!! and I think this another indication that he's not in top form. Cf. his comments on one of his early games at Corus 2008, where he said he just missing all the tactics (although most players would give their eye teeth to 'miss' tactics in the way Vishy does...). This is quite an easy shot to miss, but it's still surprising, as White always knows he has to be super careful about mates on g2 in the Marshall. The actual pattern reminds me a bit of Naiditsch vs J Gustafsson, 2007 |
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| Feb-17-08 | | Ezzy: What a difference a day makes. Yesterday Aronian played one of his worst most unmemerable games, and today he played one of his best most memerable games!! I wish Marshall was still around to see his great opening idea still being used to great effect in 21st century chess. Strange as it may seem, Aronian doesn't win that often with the Marshall. His last win was against Shirov in the Tal memorial 2006, and I can't find any others down to the year 2000. So this is a rare Marshall win for Aronian, who will be ecstatic to win with it against the current world champion. Very impressive by Aronian. A totally different player from yesterday. |
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| Feb-17-08 | | znprdx: <17.Bxg7: I believe careful analysis will confirm this as one of the best games of the year.> well IMHO this is the worst game I have seen at this level of play in memory over all time. <The decisive mistake was in fact> perhaps playing this antiquated and exhaustively analyzed opening in the first place : ) < but it is hard to evaluate the position for any human.> I realize that somehow Grandmasters can get away with losing tempos, moving their queens several times etc. which I’ll never understand. It seems to me that 24. White to play can be won by any reasonably talented ‘C’ player against perhaps even a Master More importantly than our reflections - was there an innovation by >’Marshall’ Aronian<? or did Anand mishandle well known lines? < Open Defence: this is a very deep game, the engines would have to run pretty long to find some of the ideas involved> Please keep the computers out of it. If anything this game proves their absurdity and uselessness in anything other than pure end game analysis. If Anand prepared this using a computer, I rest my case: he’ll be in trouble big time versus Kramnik. <hovik2003: ... nothing could replace good old human feel for position and intuition> I made a move in a club game – that turned out to be the key to a winning plan several moves later... Kudos to you – no need to be humble – be proud. I’d like to start a petition to keep computer posting out of live action games. |
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| Feb-17-08 | | znprdx: Forgot to add - Aronian's play was truly beautiful here...everything we should expect at this level. |
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Feb-17-08
 | | Eyal: Whether or not Anand missed 30...Re3, the crucial move (or at least its full consequences) that he missed was 29...Re2!, after which White is indeed lost whatever he does. 30.Bb6 (mentioned by <Bxg7>) should lose to the same combination beginning with 30...Rxd2! that wins after 30.Bh4. Other winning lines for Black are 30.Nf1 Bf5 31. Qxb5 Be4; or 30.Qf3 Bg4 31.Qd3 fxg3 32.hxg3 Rxf2! 33.Bh4 (33.Kxf2 Qh2+ 34.Kf1 Bxg3) 33...Re2 34.Rf1 Bh3 35.Rf2 Re1+ 36.Nf1 g5. The Marshall is a struggle between White's material advantage and Black's initiative which many times, when played on the high levels, balances out to a draw. But this game (which would probably become a classic) is a great example of how Black's initiative wins, combining many familiar attacking motifs - such as pressure on the e-file, the advance of the h- and f-pawns, the weakness of the light squares around White's king, etc. |
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Feb-17-08
 | | Ulhumbrus: Instead of 23 Bxd5, suppose White tries 23 Ra6 aiming for Qa1 and Ra8, Then 23...hxg3 24 hxg3 Bxf1 25 Kxf1 Nxe3+ 25 fxe3 Rxe3 26 Qa1 Bxg3 27 Ra8 Black has 27..Re1+ at the very least. This suggests that on 20 Bb3-d1 Black is able to spend his time usefully, giving White insufficient time to complete his development. However an alternative to both 23 Bxd5 and 23 Bd1 is 23 Bg2. One variation is 23 Bg2 Bxg2 24 Kxg2 f5 23 Qd1 f4 24 Bd2 hxg3 25 hxg3 fxg3 26 Nxg3 Bxg3 27 fxg3 Re2+ 28 Kf1 Rh2 29 Kg1 Re2 30 Ra8!Qxa8 31 Qxe2 turns the tables. If this does not work and White has to look for alternatives earlier, the exchange 14...Rxe1+! loses less time than it seems to lose because Black has the manoeuvre..Ra8-a7-e7 attacking the White Queen on e1. This suggests 14 Rxe8+ when after 14...Qxe8 it is the Black Queen which is misplaced instead of White's Queen. It seems that neither Queen can recapture a Rook on the e file with a developing move with the Queen, instead of getting the Queen misplaced. |
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Feb-17-08
 | | computer chess guy: <
30.Bb6 (mentioned by <Bxg7>) should lose to the same combination beginning with 30...Rxd2! that wins after 30.Bh4>After 30.  h4  xd2, I believe White has a perpetual with a8+. |
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Feb-17-08
| | Eyal: <computer chess guy: After 30. Bh4 Rxd2, I believe White has a perpetual with Ra8+.> No, he doesn't - check the previous kibitzing to this game. |
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| Feb-17-08 | | Microdot: <harisankar: <29.Bb6 was the best move for Anand, this is because after 29.Bb6,Re2 leads
to a draw.>
29.Bb6 will lead to 29.Bb6 fxg3! 30.hxg3(Nxg3 Bxg3 31.hxg3 Bg4 32.Ra8+ Kf7 33.f3 Bxf3 34.Rh8 Qg4 )(30.fxg3 Bxf1!! and similar lines of attack with idea of re2 possible ) 30.Bg4!! 31.Nh2 Be2 32.Qb1 Qg6 33.Nf1 Bxf1 34.Kxf1 Bxg3! 35.fxg3 Qxg3 .Now taking in rook is forced but it leads to a passed pawn which wins the game for black.) Truly amazing calculation by Aronian..he shld have prepared this line in home for sure..>
Sorry to say that but your analysis is
not true for example after
29.Bb6,fxg3 30.fxg3,Bxf1 31.Rxf1!,Re2
32.h4 and white position is ok,
if 31...Bxg3(instead of 31...Re2)32.hxg3,Re2 33.Rf2! and lead to a draw.
Or in your line, after 29.Bb6,fxg3 30.hxg3,Bg4 31.Ra8+!(instead of 31.Nh2) again lead to a draw |
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Feb-17-08
 | | kellmano: Seriously, why does anyone play the marshall as white? Not to suggest this is not a great achievment by Aronian |
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Feb-17-08
 | | pawn to QB4: Agree entirely. Both at GM level and way way down where I'm playing it's 20 moves of stress for White, one slip and you're toast - I'm sure Vishy agrees - and if you survive the other guy's parroted theory you get an ending he'll probably draw. Not much fun. But the Opening Explorer gives White a reasonable win percentage. Don't know how. |
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| Feb-17-08 | | anandrulez: Does anyone think if anand played for draw he could have achieved it easily without issues since position after 27 f4 looks like black has all pieces in good place but no good winning attack being 2 pawns down ? I still am not sure about anand's qd3 and nd2 ...pretty poor moves looking to win by giving up key square like h5 |
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| Feb-18-08 | | The Chess Express: <kellmano> & <pawn to QB4> I prefer white in the Marshal but not the way that Anand played it. |
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| Feb-18-08 | | srivad: how is the
gameover???? |
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| Feb-18-08 | | square dance: <srivad> how would you continue after 34...Bf5? |
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| Feb-18-08 | | hovik2003: <srivad: how is the
gameover????>
Game is all over because Anand will get mated on next one or two moves, and that it is indeed a rare occasion. |
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| Feb-18-08 | | hovik2003: <<kellmano><Not to suggest this is not a great achievment by Aronian> Don't you feel so bad about your more realistic and down to earth comment about the game, most of chess sites with there headlines not only suggested but pushed away Aronian achievment to the sideline and some of them even dumped it in the garbage can.
Examples which I had time to check:
Anand blunders against Aronian in Morelia-Linares chess (Mangalorean)
(http://mangalorean.com/news.php?new...) 17.02.2008 – After yesterday's victory Vishy Anand fell to a terrible blunder on move 30 in his game against Levon Aronian(ChessBase) So that how to undermine somebody's achievment by so called biased journalism, and nobody asks what Anand could have played instead of his 30th move blunder, he was in lost position from move 27 on and he didn't jumped to that position out of the blues!, that was a conclusion phase to a great game played by two super masters of the chess. |
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| Feb-18-08 | | hitman84: <I made a move in a club game – that turned out to be the key to a winning plan several moves later... Kudos to you – no need to be humble – be proud. I’d like to start a petition to keep computer posting out of live action games> <znprdx>Check this profile :
User: adrianP |
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| Feb-18-08 | | hitman84: <znprdx>Your handle is already there :) |
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| Feb-18-08 | | hitman84: <So that how to undermine somebody's achievment by so called biased journalism, and nobody asks what Anand could have played instead of his 30th move blunder, he was in lost position from move 27 on and he didn't jumped to that position out of the blues!, that was a conclusion phase to a great game played by two super masters of the chess.
>
<Hovik>Yes Aronian played a brilliant game. Now, all of us are armed with engines so its easy for us to go deeper than GMs. We even have table bases. So in short it becomes easy for us to criticise or praise players without knowing the effort it actually takes to calculate and how much under pressure the players are in.. Anand said that he thought he was losing against Carlsen in Corus but the engine analysis showed that he wasn't. It was a brilliant game by Anand but credit went to Carlsen for playing a fearless game. Anand is very honest when he gives interviews or press conferences and I'm not saying that other players aren't. I believe that Aronian played a brilliant game here. Credit goes to him for making mince meat of Anand's Ruy Lopez. Maybe there were better continuations for Anand instead of Nf3 but nevertheless were all losing.
I don't think he blundered, but played two very weak moves which just made his position collapse quickly. I believe the time is not that far when computers will take the place of humans in chess tournaments. I don't know if the report is intentionally biased, to be honest I've seen much worse reports on chess. As for chessbase I don't know. I think it's a mistake on their part, and I won't be surprised if they change it. Here is the follow up..(http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...) I often wonder why the heck should GMs analyze games when we sitting here can just check it with our engines but the positional insights offered really help.
Wherever a human is involved the error is bound to occur. Just live with it. |
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sac: 30...Re3