|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Mar-08-09 | | pinakin8: I do not think this was insanely difficult. Like 'Ladolcevita' this move jumpes as a probable move. |
 |
| Mar-08-09 | | KNIGHTSTALE22: Hi everyone. I have just opened an account today so this is my first time in the world of kibitzing. I do feel that some people miss the idea of solving puzzles. Yes, G5 is obvious, and maybe NG6 because it is a forcing move and we know to look for forcing moves when we are told their is a win, But finding 2 moves is not solving the puzzle. Some are saying that this puzzle isn't insane, but clearly they have only worked out 2 moves and not every possible variation which is what you must do in order to say you have correctly solved the puzzle. I seen both G5 and NG6 but missed that after F*G6 Q*E6+ QF7 that white has RH8+. So because i missed this 1 little move in 1 tiny variation, it means I have failed to solve the puzzle. I doubt many would find this combo over the board simply because we wouldn't be told their is a win and begin looking for forcing moves, and most (including myself) wouldn't be capable of calculating every variation correctly to ensure that every sinlge line is winning with no flaws. So no disrespect to anyone, but please don't say this puzzle isn't insane just because you seen 2 moves. |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | Stream118: Knightstale22 u r completely right! |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | zb2cr: Oh botheration. Nothing, nothing, nothing. I wanted to play 23. Ng6, but was unable to find a good followup. |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | znprdx: I enjoyed this position - simply because of the Ng6 idea: which I didn't see. This out-of-the-blue Arabian Mate threat suggests that delaying castling - or avoiding it altogether can produce some surprising attacks. moving the pieces - the win was far far from quick...
23.g5 hxg5 24.Ng6! 1]Nh7 25.Rx[N]h7 resigned ...because>:Rh4 26.Nx[R]h4 Kf8 27.Ng6!again-this time with check Ke8 28.Bb5+ Bc6 29.Bx[B]c6+ Qx[B]c6 30.R-h8+ Kd7 31. Ne5+ wins the queen Kc7 32. Nx[Q]c6 Rx[R]h8 (dies honorably with a mate in one threat) 33.Qc4 Rh4 34.Nd4+ Kd8
35.Rd1! e5 36.Ne6++ mates in 5 maximum e.g.Ke7 37.Qc7+ Kx[N]e6 38. Rd6+ Kf5 39.Qxf7+ Ke4 40.f3+ Ke3 41. Rd3# Neither did I find the spoiler Re4 -( how many of us would find this 'Fritz' move?) but tried Nd5 and white eventually grinds out the win 23.g5 instead try Nd5 24.gxh6 g6 25.Bxg6 fx[B]g6 26.Nxg6 Nf6 27.h7+ Kg7 28.h8=Q+ Rx[Q]h8 29.Nx[R]h8 Qc6 30.f3 Rd8 31.Qe5 Rx[N]h8 32.Qg5+ Kf7 33.Rx[R]h8 Qc4+ 34.Kg1 Qd4+ 35.Kh1 Qxb2 36.Rh6 Bd5 37.Qg6+ Ke7 38.Qg7+ Kd6 39.Rx[N]d6 Qc3 40.Qf8+ Kc7 41.Rf7+ mate in 9 maximum |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | Terry McCracken: <nuwanda: hi <Terry McCracken>, no need to get aggresive, no offence intended...
and of course you are right, that i dont know what i'm speaking about, which goes for everybody else who is talking about chess. and to your demand to give prooving lines: due to the finity of chess, for every position is true, that there is either a forced win for white or for black or at least one player can force a draw. So your statement <White hasn't a forced win after 23..Re4> implies that there is a forced way to win for black or a forced way to draw. Can you demonstrate this ? greets, nuwanda>
_Some_ don't know what they're talking about, not _all_. 23. g5 Re4 24. Bxe4 Nxe4 25. Nd3 Nxg5 26. Nxb4 Ne4 is the mainline. White has an advantage but not a clear win. Chessgames is known to add games that haven't been gone over with a fine tooth comb so natuarally there isn't always a clear way to win or draw. |
|
Mar-08-09
 | | KingG: I got it, but only after first spending some time trying to make something of the loose rook on d4 and a sacrifice on f7. I did of course quickly consider g5 opening up the h-file, but I thought Black could just play Rh4 if need be. Then at some moment I just realised the only way there was going to be anything in the position was down the h-file, and to weaken the e6 pawn the only move wasn't just Nxf7, but also Ng6!. This also has the benifit of preventing ...Rh4 of course. I saw all the main lines after that, but completely missed <Terry McCracken>'s 23...Re4!. Overall, it didn't take me too long to solve this, but I just wish I had eliminated some of the clear dead-ends from my thinking a bit more quickly. I think this was certainly not one of the more difficult Sunday puzzles. |
|
Mar-08-09
 | | johnlspouge: Sunday (Insane):
P Popovic vs D Kosic, 1992 (23.?) White to play and win.
Material: Even. The Black Kg8 has 2 legal moves, both dark squares on the back rank, because Bd3 controls the luft square h7. White has a battery Re1 and Qe2 backing an outpost Ne5. The White Rh1 controls a semi-open file and attacks Ph6, and with a push, the White Pg4 can open the h-file. Presently the lone Black Nf6 defends adequately, but potentially, White has a local superiority around the Black Kg8. The Black Rd4 is loose, which might later cost Black a tempo. Except for …Bxg2+, the White Kf8 is secure from checks. Candidates (23.): Nxf7, Rxh6, g5, Qe3, Qd2
23.g5 hxg5 [else, 24.gxh6 shatters the K-side P structure] 24.Ng6 (threatening 25.Rh8#)
24…fxg6 [Nh7 25.Qh5 etc] [else drop a R (at h4) for N+P] 25.Qxe6+ Qf7 [Kf8 26.Rh8+ Ng8 27.Rxg8#]
26.Rh8+ Kxh8 27.Qxf7
Black will not survive long.
My 25.Qh5 leads to overwhelming advantage, but it is not as good as the game variation 25.Rxh7. The key move 23.g5 was positionally justified, because the open h-file is easily worth a P. The follow-up 24.Ng6 is what makes the position a puzzle. I tried several variations that petered out. The most instructive variation resulted in the following diagram: 
click for larger view The unplugged diagram (a la <Once>) is 
click for larger viewthe defensive position one usually aims for with N vs. Q. After my original attempts only achieved the diagrammed position, I knew I had gone astray and found 24.Ng6. |
|
Mar-08-09
| | johnlspouge: While <Terry McCracken>'s mode of expression displays a characteristically unimpressive degree of restraint, I agree that 23...Re4 is an adequate defense. |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | swarmoflocusts: <Terry McCracken>
While 23...Re4 certainly does look like an adequate defense, I believe your line is flawed: <23. g5 Re4 24. Bxe4 Nxe4 25. Nd3 Nxg5 26. Nxb4 Ne4 is the mainline. > After 26.Nxb4, superior to 26...Ne4 is 26...Bxg2+ 27.Kxg2 Qb7+ 28.Kg3 Qxb4. |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | TCS: For those without Fritz or the time to let the computer run for 10 hours please find the meat of Fritz's analysis of the position: 23.g5 Re4 24. Bxe4 Nxe4 25. Nd3 (25. Nf3 Qc6 26. Nd4 Qc5 27. Qe3 Nxg5 28. a3 $11 0.25/14) 25... Nxg5 26. Nxb4 Rc8 27. Rh4 a5 28. Nd3 $14 0.50/15 23.Kg1 Nd7 24.g5 (24. Nxf7 Qc6 25. Nxh6+ gxh6 26. f3 e5 27. Qd2 Rf4 28. Rh5 $15 -0.69/13) (24. Nxd7 Qxd7 25. Rh3 (25. Rh5 Rd8 26. g5 Qd5 27. f3 g6 28. Rxh6 $17 -0.75/15) 25... Rd8 26. g5 Qd5 27. Rg3 hxg5 28. Qe3 $15 -0.44/15) 24... Nxe5 25.Qxe5 Qxe5 26. Rxe5 hxg5 27. Rxg5 f5 28. Rgh5 $11 -0.22/16) Fritz also spent most of the afternoon looking at 23.Bg6 (something I looked at to weaken e6) unfortunately it goes nowhere: 23. Bg6 fxg6 24. Nd3 Nxg4 25. Rh3 (25. Kg1 Qc6 26. f4 h5 27. Rh4 Rc4 28. Rxg4 $19 -6.50/15) 25... Bd5 26. Kg1 Rc8 27. Qf1 Rf8 28. Qe2 $19 -5.12/14) There is, as most of the posts amply point out, nothing clear after 23...Re4. As Terry McCracken points out in the first post the insanity is in Black's played moves - although no of us would have made the same mistakes ;-) |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | goodevans: Some interesting "banter" today indicating that feelings were running a bit high in some cases. My own feelings, as mentioned in my earlier postings, were of slight disappointment. I can go with with <apoka>'s argument that this is a valid puzzle because it has a solution that's clearly better than any of the alternatives. Moreover, I'd have been proud to have played this in a game. It's just that it doesn't quite have the "wow" factor of most Sundays and feels more like a Friday-level to me. |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | jheiner: 23. White to play
Material is even. H-file is open and B King has modest defence. Dark squares around B King are weak. Watch counterplay on light long diagonal a8-h1. Ideas. W could put together a fierce attack if he can gain enough tempos. The Rd4 is hanging. The Nf6 could be attacked with g5. And if the Kg8 moves to a dark square, the Ne5 could activate. 23.Qe3 Rd8
24.g5 hxg5 (24...N moves 25.gxh6 is crushing)
25.Qh3 (threatening immediate mate and covering the e6 square) Kf8
26.Ng6+!? (most speculative part of the sequence here) fxg6
27.Bxg6 Ke7 (B King is running)
28.Qxe6+ 
Can't visualize the exact mate, and probably some counterplay I missed, but this is my shot. Didn't spend that long on it today. The weaknesses and tempo gaining moves jumped out. Time to check. |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | jheiner: Ah! The solution was much more straightforward. Ng6 is crushing, since Qxe6+ Qf7 loses to Rh8+. This certainly didn't feel like a Sunday puzzle. A good Saturday one, and a great study though. Will have to run my sequence against Fritz, et.al. to see holes, but about to hop on a plane. Cheers. |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | jheiner: Ah, and the key mistake my sequence has is the response. 24.Ng4 attacking the Qe3. Terrible, should have seen that. |
|
Mar-08-09
 | | Anatoly21: Okay, 23. g5! was easy enough, but to see 24. Ng6!! takes real tactical insight. Got g5, but didn't find Ng6. I suppose this is a symptom of not being a grandmaster. |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | njchess: I got this one surprisingly quickly for a Sunday. I also saw the Re4 sequence but concluded that Black would have a difficult time regardless. |
|
Mar-08-09
 | | Marmot PFL: About all i got right here was the first move, although in retrospect it's not that complicated. |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | CHESSTTCAMPS: At first glance, the natural continuation in this position is 23.g5 to pry open the h-file. On closer examination, this doesn't work so well, e.g. 23.g5 hg 24.Qe3 (to gain a tempo for queen deployment) Rad1 (Rf4 may be even better) 25.Qxg5 (not Qh3?? Rh4 black wins) R8d5, white does not have any compelling continuation and black threatens Rg4. I think the key to this position has to be a rapid and effective entry of the white queen. Because the QB is gone, white would like to operate the queen on dark squares; if possible, to get it to h6 and trap the king in the corner. So I like:
23.Qe3 Rad8 24.Rxh6!
Destroying the K-side pawn shelter and undermining the Nf6 would seem to be worth a rook, but black is fully developed and mobile, so the complications must be fairly extensive. Let's look at acceptance first: 24...gxh6 25.Qxh6
A. 25...Qe7 26.Re3! threatening Rh3 (26.g5 appears to come up short against Qf8! when white plays Qe7 under less favorable circumstances) Ng4 27.Nxg4 Rxg4 28.Bh7+ (this maneuver often comes up in k-side attacks) Kh8 29.Bg6+ Kg8 30.Qh7+ and Qh8#.
A.1 26...Rxd3 27.cxd3 Qf8 (else 28.Rh3) 28. Qxf6 and white is two clear pawns up.
A.2 26...Qf8 27.Qxf6 Qg7 28.Qe7! Ba8 (or f6 29.Qxe6+) 29.Rh3! (threatening 30.Bh7+ Kh8 31.Nxf7+) Rf8 30.Rh7 wins. B. 25...Nxg4 26.Qh7+ (Bh7+ doesn't seem to lead to anything better than perpetual check) Kf8 27.Ng6+! Ke8 28.Bb5+! Bc6 29.Qg8+ Kd7 30.Qxf7+ Kc8 31.Ne7+ Kb7 32.Bxc6+ with material advantage, but still complicated! C. Declining with 24..Nxg4 looks tricky. It seems that white is forced to play 25.Nxg4 Rxg4 26.Rh8+ Kxh8 27.Qh3+ Kg8 28.Qxg4 with no apparent advantage. Perhaps white needs to start with Qd2. Oh well, I've spent too much time on this, I think I'll post and see what happened. |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | WhiteRook48: it was insane to think 23 Bh7+ was the answer for me |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | c o r e: 23...Re4 looks a beauty. We should perhaps have another category for puzzles called "unsolvable". I also spent some time looking at 23.g5 Ne4.
Did anyone else consider this move? |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | Terry McCracken: <swarmoflocusts: <Terry McCracken> While 23...Re4 certainly does look like an adequate defense, I believe your line is flawed: <23. g5 Re4 24. Bxe4 Nxe4 25. Nd3 Nxg5 26. Nxb4 Ne4 is the mainline. > After 26.Nxb4, superior to 26...Ne4 is 26...Bxg2+ 27.Kxg2 Qb7+ 28.Kg3 Qxb4.> You're right my line is flawed. 26..Bxg2+! is Best!
Thanks for the correction! I was tired and not exactly in the best of humour...Sorry everyone. I guess what makes this a good puzzle in the end is finding the best resource to draw after seeing how Black will lose if he allows the King-side assualt. |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | CHESSTTCAMPS: Yikes - my first real miss of the week, but my second Sunday miss in a row. Why look for something relatively simple when you can find something long, complicated, and wrong? |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | Bobsterman3000: So easy, yet so hard :-)
We all saw the obvious flank attack and rook sac themes, but finding a move like 24. Ng6 OTB is another matter entirely... |
|
| Mar-08-09 | | Lightboxes: <It's just that comments like g5 was obvious and puzzle is not insane...got the moves in 2 minutes. seem a bit strange.>... I use a tactic that I think most people do not use on this website. I click on the game link, then squint my eyes or use my hands to block my line of sight to the move history on the right side of the board. Then I select move white 22, like this example. Then I click the next move once. Then I see what move Black 22 is. Then I move back one move and physically move the black piece for 22. Then all the moves 23 forward on not shown. This way, I'm using the board to try new moves and path variations. Then after all that, I start at the beginning and quickly move through the game and study the player's style. There are many tactics I use to study the style that I will not list right now because there are many. The last move black made was the pawn. So I looked at the pawn. However, in this game I happened to look at the game (on the homepage) and Ng6 before clicking on the gameboard link. Then I dismissed the move because the black queen could block. Then I did my whole squinty eye thing. I looked at the pawn and then combined the move with the Ng6. I do not try to see variations to the Nth move. Instead, I look at moves and decide whether or not I should dismiss them. I'm not trying to win, just solve a puzzle. Therefore, I only find the best move I think happens to be the best and give up in X amount of time depending on the puzzle and my interest at the time then see what was played and if there were any better moves. I always put short comments because I don't want to type all of stuff I just typed above. If someone calls me on it, then I'll respond. I'm only concerned about putting my 2 cents worth. |
|
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
