< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Nov-07-09|| ||johnlspouge: Toga gives an interesting refutation of a variation from 25...Nxg3:|
25...Nxg3 26.hxg3 Qxg3 27.Bf4 Qh4+ 28.Kg1 Be5 29.Qc4
Here, Toga gives the best variation (value to White -1 P)
29...Ne3 30.Qxf7+ Kxf7 31.Bg5+ Nxf1 32.Bxh4 Ng3
33.Rf2+ Ke6 34.Bc6 Rxd3 35.Bxe8
I tried an interference, with an interesting desperado refutation (value to White +1 P)
29...Rd4 30.<Bg3>! Qe7 [Rxc4 Bxh4] 31.cxd4 Bxg3
White has threats on f7 from 30.Bg3, creating a threat with higher priority than the Qs.
|Nov-07-09|| ||VincentL: In this "difficult" puzzle, the line which immediately stands out is:|
25......Nxg3+ 26. hxg3 Qxg3 followed by 27.....Qh2 mate.
This is about Monday level, so there must be some devilish defences that white can put up. Let's see.
Firstly white has no immediate threats (a couple of days ago I missed a checkmate in one for the defending side !).
26. Kg1 Nxf1 winning the exchange. White has no other legal move 26.
So we need to look at white's options for move 27.
The obvious one is 27. Bf4 A move like 27. Bc6 is also possible.
On 27. Bf4, Qh4+ 28. Kg1 Be5
Now the white bishop will be exchanged off and mate on h2 will follow before white can bring other pieces to the rescue (e.g. the knight) - or at the very least black will emerge a bishop up.
e.g. 29. Nd2 Bxf4 30. Nf3 Qh6
On 27.Bc6/Bb7 the black rooks need to come into play.
Now on 28. Bf4 Rh5+ 29. Rh2 Rxh2 mate
Other options for white on move 28 lose material, and do not prevent mate.
e.g. 28. Rff2, Nxf2+ 29 Rxf2 Rh5+ 30. Rh2 Qxh2 mate
I don't see much else, although I don't have time to look for long.
This doesn't seem Saturday level, and I am sure I am missing something.
|Nov-07-09|| ||VincentL: Well, black didn't even play 25.... Nxg3+ Let's see what's going on here.|
|Nov-07-09|| ||VincentL: Ah... I didn't see 29. Qc4 ! in the 27. Bf4 line.
It isn't so easy to visualize the board several moves ahead when most of the major pieces are still on.
Had I been moving the pieces I would surely have seen this.
|Nov-07-09|| ||Athamas: White is up a pawn. White's pieces are fairly passive while black has an obvious king attack. First instinct was the natural Nxg3+, which seems to keep the attack, but I can't find anything decisive. Second thing I saw was Qe5, seeing Qh5 as winning, but it seemed more Sunday-level... I gave up on this one since I didn't spend too much time today since I couldn't even find the initial moves in 3-4 minutes like I normally do.|
After seeing Nxh2, it still took me a minute to comprehend it... just too focused on Nxg3+ and Qe5... I briefly considered Nf2+ but not Nxh2... I found a decent quiet move, but Nxh2 is obviously superior... don't know why I couldn't spot it after looking at Nf2+
|Nov-07-09|| ||stukkenjager: Breakout:
(26.Kxh2 Qxg3+ 27.Kh1 Qh4+ 28.Bh3 Qxh3#) (26.Rf4 Nxc1)
26...Nxg3+! 27.Kg1 (27.Kxh2 Nxf1+ 28.Kg1 Bd4+ 29.cxd4 Qxd4+)
27...Bd4+ 28.cxd4 (28.Rff2 Qxf4) 28... Qxd4+ 29.Raf2 Nhxf1
30.Bxf1 Ne2+ !! 31.Bxe2 Rxe2 32.Bg3 Re3 33.Kh2 Qg4 34.Rg2 Rexd3 0-1
score ± -13.00
|Nov-07-09|| ||Nullifidian: <VincentL><Had I been moving the pieces I would surely have seen this.|
That's why I almost always solve these with a little pegged chess board in front of me.
I also tried the 25... xg3+ line first, but came up against 29. c4. In my analysis, Black can maintain a slight edge and consolidate it into a winning advantage, but it's not as good as the next move I considered:
I see from the game that Thomas Ernst didn't play my continuation, which I think is a bit better.
After 26. f4, I have 26... xg3+. White still can't play 27. xh2 without leading to an immediate 27... xf1+ 28. xf1 xf4+ after which White might as well resign. Nor does 27. xg3 work because of 27... xg3.
The only move that staves off disaster is 27. g1. Then I'd follow up with 27... d4+ 28. cxd4 xd4+ 29. xh2 xf1+ 30. xf1 xf4+ 31. g1 d5. The game is hopeless for White at this point.
click for larger view
|Nov-07-09|| ||Katu: Everything i forced from Black's 21th move. I think the puzzle should have been started at that point...|
P.s. Nxh2 was pretty easy though. Nxg3 is jus a piece for 2 pawns (max.), but Nxh2 is "free" (Kxh2 Qxg3#).
|Nov-07-09|| ||mertens: I just saw 25. - Nxg3+ 26. hxg3 Re1, threatening Rxf1+ and Qd5+. Now if 27. Rxe1 Qxg3 threatens mate on h2 and the rook on e1. Any human or silicon opinion on this?|
|Nov-07-09|| ||Chessforeva: 3D for this game: http://chessforeva.appspot.com/C0_p...|
|Nov-07-09|| ||WhiteRook48: I just tried 25...Qxg3|
|Nov-07-09|| ||Formula7: <mertens> If 25...Nxg3+ 26.hxg3 Re1 then 27.Qc4! Rxf1+ 28.Bxf1 Qxg3 29.Qf4 looks strong.|
|Nov-07-09|| ||King.Arthur.Brazil: Again I find the combination, my mistake was in 27...g5, when I thougkt Te1+ (weak player doesn't live without checks)
28.Kh2 then g5!! it was my vision that this order was most directly to win. I'll see your kibitz now, to learn more about it, in your comments.|
|Nov-07-09|| ||mnjr22: Sorry David2009
follow your line :31...Re1 32.Bxg4 Qxg4+ 33.Rg2 Rxf1 34.Kxf1 Qd1+ 35.Kf2 Re8 36.Rxg5 Kh8 37.Re5(if d4 the game ends more quickly)Rxe5.0-1.This games ends on 28...g5!!
|Nov-07-09|| ||mnjr22: RandomVisitor: <patzer2>Here is one breakdown:
27.Kg1 then Ne2+ and the game is over
|Nov-07-09|| ||RandomVisitor: After 12...Bh8:
1: Einar J Gausel - Thomas Ernst, Gausdal 1992
click for larger view
Analysis by Rybka 3 : <23-ply>
<1. (0.32): 13.Qb2> Bg7 14.Bxg7 Kxg7 15.Nbd2 Qc7 16.d4 Ng8 17.Rab1 Rb8 18.d5 Nd8 19.bxc5 Qxc5 20.Qb4 Qc7 21.a4 Nf6 22.Rfe1 a5 23.Qc4
2. (0.24): 13.Rd1 Be6 14.Ng5 Bb3 15.Rf1 Bg7 16.Bxg7 Kxg7 17.Qb2 Ba4 18.f4 h6 19.Nf3 f6 20.c4 Nd4 21.Nc3 Bc6 22.fxe5 fxe5 23.Rab1 Rf8 24.bxc5 Nxf3+ 25.Rxf3 bxc5 26.Rxf8
|Nov-07-09|| ||Steini: Hi, Im new here, trying the riddle for two weeks now.
I thought of: 25...Qe6 26.Rb2 Nxc1 27.Rxc1 Qe1+ 28.Rxe1 Rxe1+ 29.Bf1 Rxf1+ 30.Kg2 Ne3+ 31.Kh3 Rf5 32.g4 Rf3+ 33.Kh4 Bf6#.
But it fails on 26.Rc2.|
|Nov-07-09|| ||WhenHarryMetSally: Qa2 by white is his undoing. and then the queen is off on holidays somewhere while her king burns.|
Taking control of the centre to take control of the squares in proximity to the enemy king is i think paramount. either that or to get a material advantage and to exchange fairly until the end when you can go in for the kill.
|Nov-07-09|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: Black has a knight for a bishop and is down a pawn, but has much superior deployment, with active knights in the vicinity of the black king and majors strongly posted on the central files. With white's queen offside at a6 and white's other pieces awkwardly and passively posted on the 1st and 2nd ranks, black has strong local superiority near the white king, so a kingside attack is indicated. Two forcing knight moves interested me first: Nxg3+ and Nf2+ The first appears to be adequately met by 26.hxg3 Qxg3 (Qe5 27.Kg1 Qh5 28.Bf3 appears to hold) 27.Bf4 Qh4+ 28.Kg1. After 25...Nf2+ 26.Rxf2 Nxc1 27.Rd2 Re1+ 28.Rf1 seems to hold and black's pressure on the white king has dissipated. The above parenthesized line after Nxg3+ illustrates that the Ne2 serves a useful function - screening the h2 target from the defense of the Ra2. Therefore, a third knight move came to my attention: |
Of course - why spend a knight to break down the kingside shelter when you can grab the other pawn at no charge? There are threats of Qxg3, Nxg3+, and Nxf1, yet this knight can not be taken without severe penalty:
A) 26.Kxh2? Qxg3+ 27.Kh1 Qh4+ 28.Bh3 Qxh3#
B) 26.Bf4 Nxg3+! 27.Kg1 Be5! 28.Bxe5 Qxe5 29.Kxh2 Ne3+! forces mate in 3.
B.1) 27.Kxh2 Nxf1+ 28.Bxf1 Qxf4+ wins.
B.2) 27.Bxg3 Qxg3 28.Rf3 Re1+ is deadly.
C) 26.Rxe2 Rxe2 27.Bf4 Be5 28.Bxe5 Qxe5 29.Kxh2 Qd5 30.Rg1 Qh5#
C.1) 27.Kxh2 Qd5 28.Rg1 (Qb7 Rxg7+) Qh5#
C.2) 28.Kxh2 Qd5 29.Rg1 Bxf4 30.gxf4 Qh5+ 31.Kg3 f5 32.Qc4+ (or Bd5+) Kh8 and white has no defense to the threat of Qg4+ followed by Qh4#
Got to this late after 8 hours of table tennis. Let's see what happened....
|Nov-07-09|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: A number of kibitzers seem to have preferred 26... Ng3+ as I did, but my lines with Be5 seem to be a slightly different take. To be reviewed...|
|Nov-08-09|| ||patzer2: <RV>,<stukkenjager> and <mnjr22> Thanks for the analysis of 26...Nxg3+!
It was all helpful.|
|Nov-08-09|| ||TheBish: E J Gausel vs T Ernst, 1992|
Black to play (25...?) "Very Difficult", Black is down a pawn.
I only had one candidate move, Nxg3+.
I just wasted a lot of time trying to make 25...Nxg3+ work, and now I notice that the move is 25...Nxh2!.
25...Nxh2! 26. Rxe2 (or 26. Kxh2 Qxg3+ 27. Kh1 Qh4+ 28. Bh3 Qxh3#) Rxe2 and now:
A) 27. Kxh2 Qd5 28. Rg1 Qh5#.
B) 27. Bf4 Qd7 and Black is two pawns up with a winning attack, since 28. Kxh2 is again answered by 28...Qd5!
Well, as usual, there is a lot more going on here than most people realized -- even after finding the right move!
|Nov-08-09|| ||David2009: <mnjr22: Sorry David2009 follow your line :31...Re1 32.Bxg4 Qxg4+ 33.Rg2 Rxf1 34.Kxf1 Qd1+ 35.Kf2 Re8 36.Rxg5+ Kh8 37.Re5 (if d4 the game ends more quickly) Rxe5.0-1. This games ends on 28...g5!!>
You are quite right, well analysed!. [The earlier moves had been 25...Nxg3+ 26.hxg3 Qxg3 27.Bf4 Qh4+ 28.Kg1 g5 29.Bc7 Be5 30 Bxe5 Rxe5 31 Bf3]. |
The position after 35 ...Re8! in your line is:
click for larger view
White has no good move.
|Nov-08-09|| ||gofer: White's pieces are a little underdeveloped (i.e. Nb2, Bc1 Ra2) and the queen Qa6 also seems to be a litte misplaced and though black can take some "easy pickings". But taking away white's defensive pawns seems much
25 ... Nxh2
26 Kxh2 Qxg3+ 27 Kh1 Qh4+ 28 Bh3 Qxh3#
26 Rf2 Nxc1 winning as Qxg3 is coming and then Ng4 when Qh2# is threatened...
26 Re1/Rd1 Nxc1 winning as Qxg3 is coming and then Ng4 when Qh2# is threatened...
26 Rxe2 Nxf1
27 Rxe8+ Rxe8
28 Bxf1 Qxg3
Now the black king is boxed in and black is about the play Be5 mating, so white only has two options...
29 Qb7 Qe1 winning
29 d4 cxd4 winning
Time to check...
|Nov-08-09|| ||gofer: missed the game line by an absolute mile, but otherwise okay...|
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