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Alexander R Flaata vs Tom Bothner
Oslo NOR (1998), NM, rd 6
French Defense: Knight Variation (C00)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Dec-15-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  PawnSac: <sofouuk: <holy tramp: I shouldn't have Bothnered even attempting this puzzle...>very nice gag, but this simply isn't a puzzle - rather it's a 'position', as <Once> likes to say when chessgames' daily offering is particularly obscure. as usual in such cases, im sure white played Bf4 on a hunch>

Yes i tend to agree with you. This isnít correspondence chess. Itís OTB face to face. I mean, Forget analysis. look at the position. White is a candidate master who isnít afraid to take a punch in order to put blacks lights out. White knows how to spar, and judging by the game, he climbed in the ring with a 1500-1700 player. White may have thought to himself. ďok, this woodpusher is dropping pawns left and right, and not developing properly. Now he canít even play the natural Nf6 because of his Be7. This clown is gonna play Bf6 trying to kick out my rook, then take my knight to double pawns (B and C class players love doubling pawns). Well, I like my knight, and I need to get my bishop out next so my back rank isnít weak. I could beat this patzer a piece down, and I donít have a better place for my rook anyway, so Iíll play Bf4 and let him waste two more tempi on my exchange sac, Iíll be 2 pieces ahead in development and his knight and rook are still in the corner.. Yea man, Iíll teach him a little respect and bust him up in short order.Ē So white sets out to create a miniature and put another notch in his rifle handle. Hey, Iíd do the same thing! Bf4!? and think.. ďcome on hot shot, show me what ya gotĒ Itís all about TIME, and middle class players think too hard about material. So he plays the exchange sac, and as soon as black plays 15. ..Qg6 white starts looking for a way to bring blacks king to the center of the board so he can play rope-a-dope. LOL

Dec-15-12  vinidivici: <In the game, whatīs wrong with 16...Kxc7?>

17.Qe5+ Kd7
18.Bd3 Qd6
19.Bf5+ Qc7
20.Nb5+...

if 17...Kc8 18.Nb5 would do good.

Dec-15-12  vinidivici: <Abel>

<Perhaps <Once> or someone else with a strong engine can give us the silicon's-eye view.>

This is ironic, right. This guy claimed himself as a master, but admitted himself he hasnt a single strong engine. Either you lied or lack of knowledges as a master.

Dec-15-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: Don't flaata yourself.
Dec-15-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  PawnSac: 20.Re1! The mating net. White has black set up for the knockout.

Notice that black has 2 pieces (Q+R) in the game, and white has 3 (Q+R+N). So white sac'ed the exchange and a piece, and came in the back door while blacks queen was out in the front yard picking daisies.

Dec-15-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: And investigate clamp in a find, 14.Bf4 absolutely e5 too can bet,

Footing bill in f4 e5 c7 kaputz it sacced alive to the threats in cuff a rook e5 unwanted island free for bishop to queen dangles son slide amongst h6 or g6 to finalise g7 ment queen in cover tickle c7 winding c5 or d7 roi cash in g7 white has 3 eg in pawn ahead and comfortable lead have d8xh8 then I mail light bishop in a6 f4 raid little one from me..., seeking change off re you in g6 monarch light be rascal one feel in c7 to gad getting I bowled 16.Bxc7 love the gauntlet chase that took place for freedom in at our c7 everything clicks together guessed a general up or Bxa6 fable gg on your f4 acer c7 streak in b5.

Dec-15-12  tivrfoa: Very nice text <PawnSac>. It was funny and instructive. Thank you. =)
Dec-15-12  Bengambit: The secrets of Chess is in the squares..........
Dec-15-12  Patriot: There are lots of options here. White is already ahead two pawns but his rook hangs on e5. OTB it may be more practical to play 14.Bxb7+ Kxb7 15.Re3 Bxc3 16.Rxc3 Qxd5 17.Be3 and go for a material edge (1 pawn), which is technically winning but with no margin for error. I'm sure this isn't the way this played out. 14.Nb5 looks interesting...

14.Nb5 Qxe5 15.Qg4+ Kb8 16.Bf4 Qxd5 17.Nxc7 threatening a discovered check and winning the queen. I don't think black needs to necessarily play it this way (14...Qxe5) but I'm not sure what else he has to try and get back in the game.

Dec-15-12  Patriot: I looked at 14.Bf4 Bxe5 15.Bxe5 but that wasn't so clear to me either. I never would have seen the game line.
Dec-15-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: Castling queenside is dangerous---as exhibited here.
Dec-15-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jimfromprovidence: I thought of the counterattacking move 14...g5?!, but white can just retreat with 15 Bg3.


click for larger view

Then I tried to get the knight into play and connect the rooks with 15...Ne6, but white has 16 Re6!


click for larger view

Dec-15-12  BOSTER: The open diagonal h3-c8 immediately attracted my attention like woman without top, and Bf4 only appeared outside for a sec. So 14.Qg4+ if Rd7 15.Re8+ Bd8 16.Rxd8+ Kxd8 17.Bxb7 if 14... Qd7 15.Qxd7+ Rxd7 16.Re8+ Rd8 17.Rxd8 Kxd8 and Bxb7 win. Maybe the bishop f6 was invisible.

And when I finished to write "If you like <Monday's> type, you got it here, I saw Kb8.

Dec-15-12  James D Flynn: White is 2 pawns up and controls more space, neither side is fully developed, and the White R on e5 is under attacked,. White can complete his development and protect the R by 14.Bf4 when Bxe5 doesnít simply win the exchange because when the Q on d6 moves the pawn on g7 needs defense. 14.Bf4 Bxe5 15.Bxe5 Qg6(protecting g7)16.Qc4 Rd7 17.Bxg7 Qxg7 18.Qc6 Kd8( if Bxa6 19.Qa8#)18.Qxb7 Ke7(if Ke8 19.Re1+ Ne7 20.Qc8+ Rd8 21,Bb5+ Kf8 22.Qxd8#)19.Bb5 Rd8 29.Qxc7+ Kf6 30.Qxd8+ Kg6 31 32.Qxb6+ White is a piece and 4pawns up and ill Place his R on d1 and push his d pawn winning more material. The other candidate is to move the R to e4 or e8: 14.Re4 Bxc3 15. bxc3 Qxd5 and Black has won back one of the pawns and crippled the White Q-side majority. Black now threatens both Qd1+ and Qx g2# hence 16.Bxg7+ is forced. 16.Bxb7+ Kxb7 17.Bf4(there is no time for Ra4 because Of the back rank matethreat) Nf6 18.Ra4 Ra8 and suddenly the White pawn on a2 is under attack) 19.Rxa8 Rxa8 20 a4 Qa5 21.c4 Re8 and the White Q is ignominiously forced at f1.White is still a pawn up and has B for N but Blackís pieces are the more actively placed. 14.Re8 Ne7 15.Rxh8 Rxh8 and Black has completed his development and White has no immediate threats.
Dec-15-12  Kikoman: A rook sac <Bf4> leads to a sharp play by white and that's it.

Kihx3

Dec-15-12  avidfan: At move 18 Black would lose his ♖/d8 if 18...Kd6 since 19.Qxb6+ forks that rook.

18...Qg6xc2 was inadequate against 19.Re1 (closing the mating net).


click for larger view

The Knight and Queen provide an effective example of cooperation. By move 22, the Black queen must interpose in vain.

Dec-15-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: White is two pawns ahead.

Black threatens 14... B(Q)xe5.

The development move 14.Bf4, instead of wasting time taking the rook back, seems more adequate in this position because it creates some threats and White's back rank becomes stronger:

A) 14... Bxe5 15.Bxe5

A.1) 15... Re8 16.Qg4+ Qd7 (16... f5 just loses another pawn) 17.Bxb7+ Kd8 18.Qxd7+ Kxd7 19.Bc6+ and 20.Bxe8 + - [B+2P].

A.2) 15... Qg6 16.Qc4

A.2.a) 16... Rd7 17.Bxb7+ Kxb7 18.Qc6+ Qxc6 (18... Kc8 19.Qa8#) 19.dxc6+ Kxc6 20.Bxg7 f6 21.Bxh8 h6 22.Re1 Rh7 23.Re8 Rxh8 24.Ne4 + - with the threat Nf6.

A.2.b) 16... c6 17.Bxb7+ Kxb7 18.Qxc6+ Qxc6 (18... Ka6 19.Qc4+ b5 20.Qxb5+ Ka7 21.Qa5+ and 22.Qxd8; 18... Ka7 19.Qc7+ and 20.Qxd8) 19.dxc6+ Kxc6 20.Bxg7 is similar to A.2.a.

A.3) 15... Qd7 16.Bxb7+ Kxb7 17.Bxg7 + - [3P].

B) 14... Bxa6 15.Qxa6+

B.1) 15... Kb8 16.Nb5 Qc5 (16... Qd7 17.Qa7+ Kc8 18.Qa8#) 17.d6 Bxe5 18.dxc7+ Bxc7 19.Bxc7+ Qxc7 20.Nxc7 Kxc7 21.Re1 Rb8 22.Qc4+ and 23.Qxf7 + - [Q+3P vs R+N].

B.2) 15... Kd7 16.Re4 Qf8 17.Rc4 Rc8 18.Bxc7 Rxc7 19.Rxc7+ Kxc7 20.Qa7+ Kd8 (20... Kd6 21.Qa3+ and 22.Qxf8) 21.Qb8+ Ke7 22.d6+ wins.

C) 14... Ne7 15.Bxb7+ Kxb7 16.Re4 Qc5 17.Rc4 Qa5 18.Rxc7+ + - [3P].

D) 14... Nh6 15.Re4 Qf8 16.Rc4 Rd7 17.Bxb7+ Kxb7 18.Nb5 Bd8 19.Ra4 with the threat 20.Nd6+ and 21.Qa6+ with mate soon.

Dec-15-12  paramount: <Patriot: I looked at 14.Bf4 Bxe5 15.Bxe5 but that wasn't so clear to me either. I never would have seen the game line.>

Dont worry, you are not the only one. Non-masters like us only can see them as a miracle line.

<vinidivici: <Abel>

<Perhaps <Once> or someone else with a strong engine can give us the silicon's-eye view.>

This is ironic, right. This guy claimed himself as a master, but admitted himself he hasnt a single strong engine. Either you lied or lack of knowledges as a master.>

to <vin> :Could you please stop judging another person as a master or not. Although you got a point, a master should have a strong helper (engine) to examine their games.

Well, but please stop judging another user whether <Abel> is a master or not. I saw your posts, its better to you to post some lines again. Sometimes your posts had something useful but sometimes you just commented non-sense to games/users/or being arrogant.

Dec-15-12  Patriot: <paramount> Thanks for the kind words. According to the score sheet, white was an expert--not a master. It's hard to say how much he saw and how much was instinct, but he certainly played it well. Sometimes masters don't get lines like this right. It's not easy, much less during a timed game. There's no doubt in my mind that chess involves a bit of luck--especially when there are human player's involved. My coach (a master) once told me back when I was rated around 1300 that I played a game WAY above my level--he said I played it like an expert. So it can happen and further proves my point about luck.
Dec-15-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Abdel Irada: <This is ironic, right. This guy claimed himself as a master, but admitted himself he hasnt a single strong engine. Either you lied or lack of knowledges as a master.>

Speaking of irony, the definition of "master" must be a bit different where you are, being determined not by the strength of the player, but by that of his engine.

If I were a cynic, I'd wonder if you'd just fingered yourself as a (C)heat, but as it is, I think you're simply blathering again.

Meanwhile, I believe I'll continue to do my own thinking, and invoke the judgment of the silicon deities only after I've posted my analysis.

Dec-16-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  PawnSac: <Jimfromprovidence: I thought of the counterattacking move 14...g5?!, but white can just retreat with 15 Bg3.

Then I tried to get the knight into play and connect the rooks with 15...Ne7, but white has 16 Re6!>

you're certainly right about that. If black plays foolishly he can get in a lot of hot water very quickly! For example.. pushing the H pawn to squeeze the bishop fails miserably to Rxg5 and Rxh5 but worse yet is 15...g5? 16.Bg3 h5?? 17.Re4! Qc5?! 18.Bxg7+ Kxb7 19.Rc4 Qa5 20.Rxc7+ Ka8 21.Nb5 and black may as well resign.

But introduce a couple bad moves in any game, and we could sit here all day coming up with winning attacks. The difficult part is coming up with GOOD moves for black. Once a position is ruined it often takes too much time to repair it. And any move that wins material at the expense of damaging the position should also be considered with skepticism.

Dec-16-12  vinidivici: lol...you so contradicted of what you have said
<Abel>

<I'm still a bit unsure of which line is better: 16. Bxc7 or 16. Qc4. Perhaps <Once> or SOMEONE ELSE WITH a STRONG ENGINE CAN GIVE US the SILLICON-EYE VIEW.>

<Meanwhile, I believe I'll continue to do my own thinking, and invoke the judgment of the silicon deities only after I've posted my analysis.>

Dude...you just caught in the act for lying!!!!!

Why in the world you needed <once> or <someone else> to utilize the strong engine if you had one.

Or you just want to boast yourself with your engine-analysis.....

Dec-17-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Abdel Irada: <vinidivici>: I think you really have gone too far this time.

Without undue optimism, I will make one final attempt to explain something to you:

A player's strength is determined by the workings of his own mind, and does not depend upon the availability of engines for analysis.

Such engines do have a useful role to play, in evaluating from the standpoint of an extremely strong (often over 3000 Elo), objective examiner the relative merits of two or more complex lines of play. However, to refer to such an engine before posting a puzzle solution would impress me as dishonest; hence my reference to preferring to think for myself, post my own analysis, and *then* perhaps have it evaluated by an engine.

I make allowances: Perhaps you're a member of a generation that is more disposed than its predecessors to attach a high level of reverence to computer programs, and perhaps you don't realize that not many years ago, such engines didn't exist. When I was making my way up in the chessic ranks, one's rating solely reflected one's own merits and efforts; there was simply no question of "computer assistance." It is therefore extremely offensive to suggest that I can't be a strong player because I don't have such "assistance."

Meanwhile, I also point out that you need only look at any of my posts to see how my username is spelled, and I don't appreciate your obviously intentional misspelling of it.

Finally, I think one had better have a very good — in fact, an unimpeachable — reason before accusing another user of "lying," as you have now done repeatedly. You have no such reason, and you may want to consider the potential consequences of your actions.

Dec-17-12  vinidivici: <Abdel>

Ok, ok, i beg your pardon then. Are you an admin or something?

Although this is my free account but its kind of valuable for me to post my knowledges. So no offense. Lets finish the quarrel between us. No complaint, no hard feeling, just a sincere feeling.

Dec-17-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <paramount: <Patriot: I looked at 14.Bf4 Bxe5 15.Bxe5 but that wasn't so clear to me either. I never would have seen the game line.> Dont worry, you are not the only one. Non-masters like us only can see them as a miracle line.>

Some masters as well. (Wink, nod)

Had this position arisen in one of my games, I should possibly-heavy emphasis on possibly-gone in for 14.Bf4 Bxe5 15.Bxe5 in analysis, but really rather doubt I would have gone in for the followup which gives the game its charm.

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