< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 1 OF 2 ·
|Jul-26-08|| ||Amarande: Missed the game continuation, but got something else which seems to be as winning:|
19 Nd7+ and now:
a) 19 ... Kc8 20 Nb6++ Kb8 21 Qc8#
b) 19 ... Ka8 20 Nb6+! axb6 (cxb6 21 Qc8 is still mate) 21 Ra3+ and Black must interpose the Queen, losing it.
|Jul-26-08|| ||nateinstein: I found the same line as you Amarande, I wonder if it is winning too.|
|Jul-26-08|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <Amarande ... cxb6 21 Qc8 is still mate>|
Nope, 21 ... Bb8 and black is ahead:
click for larger view
|Jul-26-08|| ||Quad Fifties: Amarande i think after 20...cxb6 21 Qc8+ Bb8 would interpose the bishop and block the check..|
|Jul-26-08|| ||syracrophy: <Amarande> In your last variation, after 21.♖a3+ black has the escape to b8, and the attack seems to be over|
|Jul-26-08|| ||zooter: a real toughie....
After 19.Nd7+ Ka8 (19...Kc8 20.Nb6++ Ka8 21.Qc8#) 20.Nb6+ cxb6 (20...axb6 21.Qc8#) 21.Qc8+ is met by 21...Bb8 and now white seems at a dead end....
I also like 19.Re5 threatening the queen and interposing on the b8-h2 diagonal, but then white may simply exchange queens or even play 19...Qxh3 threatening mate....
I won't spend more time, either I'm missing some deadly combination or overlooking something
|Jul-26-08|| ||whylog.com: interesting.. I thought I figured it out also with the same lines as you did Amarande.. anyone have insight on if those lines are correct? Or are we all missing something.|
|Jul-26-08|| ||zooter: In the gameline what happens after 20...Ka8?|
|Jul-26-08|| ||zooter: Edit my line reads:
19.Nd7+ Kc8 20.Nb6+ and now if 20...axb6 21.Qc8+ (not mate) Ka7 22.Ra3+ and white must lose his queen
|Jul-26-08|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <zooter: In the gameline what happens after 20...Ka8?>|
Black gets checkmated with Qc8#
|Jul-26-08|| ||whylog.com: ok that makes sense, 21 ... Bb8
I knew it couldn't be so easy for a Saturday.
|Jul-26-08|| ||dabbler: In Amarande's analysis, if the move is 19...Ka8, 21 Qc8 doesn't lead to mate because Black can play Bb8.|
|Jul-26-08|| ||Manic: Well, I missed 21.Ne5!. I had thought of trying to sac the knight after 21.Qc6 Rxg2+ 22.Kxg2 Rg8+ 23.Ng5!? but after 23...Rxg5 24.Kh1 Rb5! black survives. I had thought of moving the knight earlier after Rb3+ but couldn't see how to avoid a forced exchange after black moves queen to f7/g6/e8 or rook to b6.|
21...Qe8 is refuted by 22.Qxa6 Qc8 23.Nc6+ Ka8 24.Qxa7#
|Jul-26-08|| ||Manic: And for a moment I had the line that <Amarande> first posted, but it did felt too easy and sure enough after looking for about a minute I noticed Bb8.|
|Jul-26-08|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <Manic: Well, I missed 21.Ne5!>|
Yeah, I did, too. I tried to make 21.Qxa6 work, but to no avail, because of 21...Qd5. White still can try 22.Ra3, but the black K can run away via c8.
21.Ne5 neatly took away a tempo from the black, which white really needed.
In the played line, black provided a lot of help with 21...Re8??
Hiarcs tells me that the correct play was to take the knight with 21...Bxe5, in the resulting position, finding the best move for white (there is only one -- try to find it) is not that obvious. It may be easier when one looks at the resulting position:
click for larger view
but much more difficult to see it two moves earlier.
|Jul-26-08|| ||lost in space: Very complex and hard today and many candidate moves: Nxa6, Nxb7 Nd7+ and Qd7|
19. Na6 bxa6 (19...Ka8 20. Qc8#) 20. Rb3+ Nb7 (20...Ka8 21. Qc8#) 21. Ne5
This move is better than the direct 21. Qxa6, eventhough it should win for white, too: 21..Rxg2+! 22. Kxg2 Rg8+ Ng5 (haven't found anything better) Qxg5+ 24. Kf3 Qd5+ and the situation is less clear as after 21. Ne5
21...Bxe5 (this time 21..Rxg2+ 22. Kxg2 Bxe5 23. Qd5! is no danger) 22. Qc6 (to threat mate and to protect g2) Rxg2+ 23. Qxg2 Qg6.
No mate, but Black can resign.
|Jul-26-08|| ||dzechiel: White to move (19?). White is a pawn up. "Very Difficult."|
It sure looks like black is having his way with white. The white queen is under attack from the knight, and the rook on e3 is under attack from the bishop. Not to mention that black has all sorts of attacking chances of his own.
However, white has some forcing moves of his own.
19 Na6+ bxa6
Moving the king allows 20 Qc8#.
20 Rb3+ Nb7
Same comment as above.
In this position white would like to play 21 Qc6 threatening mate on b7, but this would allow 21...Rxg2+ and it's white that is in hot water.
Boy, I'm not seeing it tonight. I want to use the knight here to slow down the black assault and give white time to play Qc6, but I don't see how it's done.
I may be on the wrong track altogether. Time for me to check and see what I'm missing.
|Jul-26-08|| ||zenpharaohs: nateinstein: "I found the same line as you Amarande, I wonder if it is winning too."|
Alas, I too found that line. It's not winning though.
The right move is Na6+, but 21 ... Re8?? is a blunder. Black should respond 21 ... Bxe5
|Jul-26-08|| ||Mr Apples: Ne5! is a good move and the only one I would put an exclam next to because everything else just fell into place, nothing spectacular.|
|Jul-26-08|| ||Alphastar: I found the first three moves. I suppose it's difficult, not because the combination is that particularly complex, but because black has a huge attack himself as well. Consider what would happen after something like 19. Na6+ bxa6 20. Rb3+ Nb7 21. Qxa6? Rxg2+.|
|Jul-26-08|| ||Once: I very nearly turned into the sort of kibitzer that I don't like. My first thought might have led to a post like - "I spotted Nd7+ in half a nanosecond. Too easy for a saturday."|
But wait - it's not that easy. 19. Nd7+ Ka8 20. Nb6+ cb 21. Qc8+ Bb8. Then I start getting worried about black's counterplay (Rxf3 anyone?).
Time to backtrack. The other check worth considering is 19. Na6+. Then 19. ... ba 20. Rb3+ Nb7 is all fairly straightforward.
Then what? Either Qc6 or Qxa6 looked promising to me, so I stopped analysing at that point. Didn't see Ne5
|Jul-26-08|| ||rookattack: doesn't 22...Rxg2 23.Kxg2 Rg8+ (24.Ng4 Rxg4+ 25.hxg4 Qxg4+ 26.Rg3 Bxg3 27.fxg3 Qxg3 ends in draw) 24.Rg3 Bxg3 25.fxg3 leave black far better off than in the actual game?|
|Jul-26-08|| ||Alphastar: <rookattack> it's all over but the shouting after 24. Kh1!.|
|Jul-26-08|| ||234: Friday puzzle Jul-25-08 <22. ...?> Hsu Li Yang vs Nunn, 1992|
|Jul-26-08|| ||TheaN: 5/6
Hey, hey, what's that? I was on the exact same track as <Amarande>, finishing correctly if axb6:
<19.Nd7†? Ka8> (Kc8 20.Nb6†† Ka8 21.Qc8‡) <20.Nb6†?? cxb6!> (axb6? 21.Qc8† Ka7 22.Ra3† Qa5 23.Rxa5† , although not over) <21.Qc8 Bb8>..... yeah.
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