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Arno Nickel vs The World
"World Peace" (game of the day Feb-25-09)
Chessgames Challenge (2008)  ·  Sicilian Defense: Richter-Rauzer. Neo-Modern Variation (B67)  ·  1/2-1/2
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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 840 OF 931 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jan-18-09  Bondsamir: What's the song of <OhioChessFan> all about?. is it just a song or it is modern chess notation.
Jan-18-09  edda zeitz: <newton296: Franky, I'm a little embarrassed with our play>

Listen to Liberty X: Just a little

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBua...

or to Hank Williams and the Zodiacs: Stay just a little bit ... http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...

Jan-18-09  classF: <GMAN: Here Hydra offered a draw, which was completely okay, but I refused it, because in an exhibition game people would prefer to see how both sides solve the remaining problems.>

http://www.amici.iccf.com/issues/is...

Jan-18-09  Bondsamir: If we would let Mr.Nickel vote for our next move he would never think of a move worse than Ng4.
Jan-18-09  chessjones11: My idea is just to give him one draw offer, and none after that. When he agrees the game is dead drawn, he will give <us> a draw offer.

That is proper chess etiquette. Repeated offers to draw is grossly rude.

Jan-18-09  crazymate: does he just see the actual move that gets voted in..

or does Mr.Nickel see our move choices and draw offer percentages.

I mean.. does he see like 50% of the team voting Nf6 and 40% of the team voting Rc8.. and 5% of the team voting b4 and 5% other moves.

I wonder what he thinks of Ng4.. lol

Jan-18-09  carelessfills: <Bondsamir: If we would let Mr.Nickel vote for our next move he would never think of a move worse.>

Qb4 is probaby worst, with Qa3 a close second.

Jan-18-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <sentriclecub: I have a question about manners.

If we vote 51% for a draw offer and he rejects...

Is it rude to vote 51% for a draw offer again?

How long should we wait?

This cub is mainly interested to hear from people who thought it was rude to give GMT 30 questions after his exhibition loss.

My idea is just to give him one draw offer, and none after that. When he agrees the game is dead drawn, he will give <us> a draw offer. >

My feeling is that a draw offer now is premature. There is plenty of room (for either side) to err. Being that this is an exhibition game that GMAN is providing to us as a favor, a draw offer from us, IMO, would indicate that we're missing the point of the game (unless the position were clearly dead).

It's better if the draw offer comes from GMAN. At this point, if it came, I'd opt to accept it.

Regarding the the 30 questions for GMT, I don't think I'd necessarily call it "rude", but it was a bit "over the top". I'm not surprised that he didn't respond to it.

Jan-18-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  lost in space: Not any longer a draw offer from me. But I am voting still for Qxb7.
Jan-18-09  DanLanglois: <lost in space: After I executed a deep analyse of 35...Qg3 36. Qxg3 hxg3 - showing that there is nothing to win for white - I am now looking for <35...Qg3 36. Qg1>. I am not sure if the following analyse is showing soemthing new:

<32...Nf6 33.Bxb7 Qxb7 34.Nc2.Qc7 35.Ne3 Qg3 36. <Qg1>>

with d=26 is got with fritz 11:

A: 0,00; 36...Rg5 37. a3 a5 38. Qf1 Re5 (interesting is also 38...Rc5) 39. Ng4 Nxg4 40. fxg4 Qe3 41. Rd7 Rf8 42. R1d3 Qe2. This position is evaluated with <0,00 d=22>

B: 0,07 36...a5 37. Rd3 Rc8 38. Ng4 Rf5 39. Nxf6 Rxf6 40. Rd4 Rf4 41. Rxf4 Qxf4 42. Qd4+ Qf6

I think we have now 0,00 and the risk to lose is very limited

BTW:
C: +0,12 36...Qg5
D: +0,13 36...Qf4 >

36...Rg5 37. Rd3 Nd5 38. Ng4 Rf5 39. Qd4+ Kh7 40. R3d2 Rd8 41. Nf2 Kg8 42. Qg4


click for larger view

Jan-18-09  Bondsamir: <sentriclecub> ,I agree it is quite good time to vote 51% for draw. though I,m sure he will reject at this point. and thus he will be under the pressure of trying to prove that he has a deeper look than ours and also he will feel overconfident and that will make him closer to blunder.
Jan-18-09  benjinathan: <Regarding the the 30 questions for GMT, I don't think I'd necessarily call it "rude", but it was a bit "over the top". I'm not surprised that he didn't respond to it.>

I actually thought his failure to respond at any level after the game was rude, far more so than the 30 questions. I am sure that he fulfilled his contractual obligation to the letter, but I see this as no different than players answering questions from the press after a game-it could easily be thiry questions or more.

He could just have said: I don't have time to answer all of your questions in writing but.... But we got no bone thrown to us at all.

I don't want to be too harsh. Perhaps there was a language issue or something else.

To me talking about the game with your opponent is one of the best parts of chess and I an always grateful when stronger players do it with me. And I find they usually do.

Jan-18-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Karpova: I agree with <benjinathan>. He needn't have answered all of the 30 questions. He might have picked out some questions and ignored the rest.

Regarding a draw offer in this game: In this position, it's up to White to offer a draw. Since we neither have fully equalized nor a forced TB draw yet, we should not offer a draw in my opinion.

Jan-18-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <benjinathan> Yes, I would agree with your points.

But I've always wondered if our list of 30 questions circumvented the dialogue that might have occurred had we not presented him with that long list of questions right on the heels of his loss.

In the future, I think it would be better to approach the post-game discussion in a dialogue form rather by trying to give the GM a nearly comprehensive list of questions all at once. Live and learn. :-)

Jan-18-09  pawndookie: <DanLanglois: <lost in space: After I executed a deep analyse of 35...Qg3 36. Qxg3 hxg3 - showing that there is nothing to win for white - I am now looking for <35...Qg3 36. Qg1>. I am not sure if the following analyse is showing soemthing new: <32...Nf6 33.Bxb7 Qxb7 34.Nc2.Qc7 35.Ne3 Qg3 36. <Qg1>>

with d=26 is got with fritz 11:

A: 0,00; 36...Rg5 37. a3 a5 38. Qf1 Re5 (interesting is also 38...Rc5) 39. Ng4 Nxg4 40. fxg4 Qe3 41. Rd7 Rf8 42. R1d3 Qe2. This position is evaluated with <0,00 d=22>

B: 0,07 36...a5 37. Rd3 Rc8 38. Ng4 Rf5 39. Nxf6 Rxf6 40. Rd4 Rf4 41. Rxf4 Qxf4 42. Qd4+ Qf6

I think we have now 0,00 and the risk to lose is very limited

BTW:
C: +0,12 36...Qg5
D: +0,13 36...Qf4 >

36...Rg5 37. Rd3 Nd5 38. Ng4 Rf5 39. Qd4+ Kh7 40. R3d2 Rd8 41. Nf2 Kg8 42. Qg4 >

37...e5

Jan-18-09  Bondsamir: <edda zeitz>,how are you? it's been a while.
Jan-18-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  tamar: On the thirty questions:

Ordinarily a post mortem involves an exchange of information, but the thirty questions only asked GM Nickel to divulge his decision making process without there being the possibility of gleaning any information about ours.

He may already have been thinking of a rematch!

Jan-18-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Karpova: <tamar: Ordinarily a post mortem involves an exchange of information, but the thirty questions only asked GM Nickel to divulge his decision making process without there being the possibility of gleaning any information about ours.>

It was GM Gert Jan Timmerman, not GMAN and our opponents can read these pages after the games so he could look at our "thought process" - the posts, the voting and the forums (or at least see them being mentioned with designation, etc.).

Jan-18-09  Open Defence: <but the thirty questions only asked GM Nickel> no wonder GMT did not respond, we asked the wrong guy!!! :)
Jan-18-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  tamar: Oh wow, I messed up!
Jan-18-09  Open Defence: sorry <tamar> that was too good to pass up :)
Jan-18-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwid: Jan-18-09
< benjinathan: Regarding the 30 questions for GMT > <I don't think I'd necessarily call it "rude">

I do! At the completion of a game the winner should graciously say thanks for the game and no more.

The looser may ask politely where and how improvements could be made if the opponent is considered a friend.

But even such a request can be construed to be rude because worthy analysis are normally not free they are safely guarded and only revealed during an other encounter.

If any opponent would ask where did I go wrong or show me how I could win or draw against you in our next encounter, do you consider such a request reasonable?

How would you answer such a request especially if you just lost a game?

Jan-18-09  Open Defence: <kwid> I thought our questions acknowledged that GM Timmerman is the superior player despite the result in one game
Jan-18-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  tamar: No problem <Open Defence> You are very funny. I get confused with the GMT and GMAN monikers I suppose:(

<Karpova> I'm not sure I could describe our thought processes even with the aid of the hundreds of pages to refresh my memory.

I suspect our success has to do more with the 30,000 or so engines chugging continuously in <Random Visitor>'s basement :-)

Jan-18-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwid: Jan-18-09
< Open Defence: <kwid> I thought our questions acknowledged that GM Timmerman is the superior player despite the result in one game >

Well, your description or definition of being a superior looser is quite subjective indeed.

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