|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 926 OF 931 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Feb-24-09 | | ajile: Show me an eval over/under .10 in the last 50 pages. Remember anything below .5 is a draw. Does anyone think he's going to drop a bad move in our lap like manna from heaven? |
 |
| Feb-24-09 | | Nite4k: I just withdrew my draw offer and now <Brent Baccala> and his allies need 36 more withdrawals to play on. I would not deny a few more moves for those who are passionate about playing on until the draw is clearer. Right now, we have just equalized with the momentum in our favor (notwithstanding the [+0.00] Rybka evaluations). |
|
| Feb-24-09 | | Brent Baccala: Thank you, <Nite4k> |
|
| Feb-24-09 | | Smothered Mate: Voted Qxe5 no draw. |
|
| Feb-24-09 | | Brent Baccala: Thank you, <Smothered Mate>. I'll off to bed. I'll check in after the vote tomorrow... |
|
Feb-24-09
 | | kb2ct: I wondered how Rybka would respond to Günter's Shredder ploy of using the g-pawn as a shield and not taking the c-pawn :0)
1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. Nf3 d6 4. d4 cxd4 5.
Nxd4 Nf6 6. Bg5 e6 7. Qd2 a6 8. O-O-O Bd7 9. f3 Be7 10. Be3 h5 11. Kb1 Qc7 12.
Nxc6 Bxc6 13. Bd3 b5 14. Ne2 Rc8 15. Nd4 Nd7 16. h3 Bb7 17. Bg5 Bxg5 18. Qxg5
Kf8 19. c3 h4 20. Rhe1 Rh6 21. Bc2 Qb6 22. Re2 Nf6 23. Bb3 Qc5 24. Qe3 Re8 25.
Red2 Rh5 26. Bc2 g6 27. Qe1 Qc7 28. Ne2 d5 29. exd5 Nxd5 30. Be4 Kg7 31. Qf2
Qe7 32. Nd4 Nf6 33. Bxb7 Qxb7 34. Nc2 Qc7 35. Ne3 Qg3 36. Qg1 Rg5 37. a3 a5 38.
Qf1 Re5 39. Rd3 Qf4 40. Re1 Nd5 41. Nxd5 exd5 42. Rxe5 Qxe5 43. Rd4 Qe1+ 44.
Qxe1 Rxe1+ 45. Ka2 Re2 46. Rxh4 Rxg2 47. Rd4 Rf2 48. Rxd5 Rxf3 49. Rxb5 Rxh3
50. Rxa5 f5 51. b4 f4 52. Ra7+ Kf6 53. Ra6+ Kg5 54. Ra8 Kg4 55. Rf8
f3 56. a4 Kg3 57. b5 f2 58. Kb3
Looks like a possible if not likely win for white
Does black have to grab the c-pawn and allow an easy draw?? 
click for larger view |
|
Feb-24-09
 | | lost in space: So far I have not heart anything concrete about how to win this position (0,00 according to Rybka and fritz 11) No plan, no idea was offered how to get a chance for winning this position. What we have is a technical delineation of how a specific program works, if we manage to reach a position which can be handled by the program. Not enough, from my point of view (sorry Brent Baccala) Most games are lost by trying to win a draw position(or by blunders). kwid's trap line is only working if our opponent tries to win keenly. As he offered draw, he will not try to win. So what other hopes do we have? |
|
Feb-24-09
 | | ganstaman: <lost in space> What we have (or want) is time. We would continue to play out this position towards the likely draw (GMAN would be trying to draw since he believes it is drawn, so there is likely very little risk of a loss). Playing more moves buys us time to see if we can get Hoffman to be useful in the position so that then we can assess if we do have a winning plan or not. If we do, great! We win! If not, then we offer a draw and GMAN happily accepts. It's not like we propose going all out for a draw from here with no supporting analysis. We want to follow the safe analysis already produced and trusted. Especially with the risk lacking, I don't see why others don't want to give hope a chance. |
|
Feb-24-09
 | | Tabanus: I can certainly play on but see the last post in my forum, it can be months with queens still on board and a pawn down. |
|
Feb-24-09
 | | imag: <ajile: <Brent Baccala:> No offense but I think you are living in a fantasy world. This game is a draw. He's IMO actually still a bit better so his draw offer is generous. Keep in mind we could also LOSE this game and it would suck big time to lose after he offered a draw. It's these last minute vote crusades that gave us a worse game in the opening. We don't need to do this anymore.> I agree.
And what rook endgame are you talking about? There will be no rook endgame! End of story. 42...Qxe5 43.Rd2 b4 44.axb4 axb4 45.cxb4
45...Rb8 46.b5 Qf5+ 47.Rc2
click for larger viewand White can hold on to the extra pawn forever. Why exchange queens and lose the pawn with 47.Qd3??? Because Rybka says it's 0.00? No human would ever play that unless he is sure that he will be able to comfortably hold the rook endgame. I accepted the draw offer and I won't change my mind unless someone provides a line where White is <forced> to give up the extra pawn. I already looked at it with Rybka really deeply so good luck with that. Otherwise playing with a pawn down hoping for a win is just rude to GMAN. |
|
Feb-24-09
| | imag: I guess I can post my lines as well (regarding the line mentioned in my previous post) <47.Rc2>
click for larger view24 ply (first three lines 25 ply)
1. = (0.00): 47...d4 48.Qc4 Kg8 49.b6 Re8 50.Qc5 Qd3 51.Qc4 Qf5 52.Qc5 Qd3 53.Qc4 Qf5 54.Qc5 Qd3 55.Qc4 Qf5 56.Qc5 Qd3 57.Qc4 Qf5 58.Qc5 Qd3 59.Qc4 Qf5 60.Qc5 Qd3 61.Qc4 Qf5 62.Qc5 Qd3 2. = (0.00): 47...Kg8 48.Qe2 d4 49.Qc4 Rf8 50.Qxd4 Qxb5 51.Qc4 Qd7 52.Qc3 Qf5 53.Qc5 Qd3 54.Qf2 Re8 55.Qd2 Qf5 3. = (0.00): 47...Kf8 48.Qf2 Qd3 49.b6 Kg8 50.Qe2 Qd4 51.Rd2 Qg1+ 52.Rd1 Qxb6 53.Rxd5 4. = (0.00): 47...g5 48.Qe2 Kf8 49.Kc1 Qf4+ 50.Qd2 Qxd2+ 51.Kxd2 Rxb5 52.Kc3 Ke7 53.b4 Kd6 54.Ra2 f6 55.Ra6+ Ke5 56.Ra5 Rb7 57.Kb3 Kd6 58.Ra6+ Ke5 59.Ra5 Kd6 60.Ra6+ Ke5 61.Ra5 Kd6 62.Ra6+ Ke5 5. = (0.00): 47...Kh7 48.Qf2 Kg8 49.Qxh4 Qd3 50.Qf2 Qxb5 51.Qe2 Qa5 52.Qd2 Qa6 53.Rc7 d4 54.h4 Ra8 6. = (0.00): 47...Kh8 48.Qe1 Kg8 49.Qxh4 Qd3 50.Qf2 Qxb5 51.Qe2 Qa5 52.Qd2 Qa6 53.Rc7 d4 54.h4 Ra8 7. = (0.00): 47...Rb7 48.Qe2 Rb8 49.Qe1 Kg8 50.Qxh4 Qd3 51.Qf2 Qxb5 52.Qe2 Qa5 53.Qd2 Qa6 54.Rc7 d4 55.h4 Ra8 |
|
Feb-24-09
| | lost in space: <<Tabanus>: I can certainly play on but see the last post in my forum, it can be months with queens still on board
and a pawn down.>
Yeah, I agree with your statement and would add "and no black winning chances" |
|
Feb-24-09
 | | blue wave: Sigh...... OK, if it means that much to some, I remove my draw offer. |
|
| Feb-24-09 | | g.mueller: Hi
<imag: <ajile: <Brent Baccala:>
No offense but I think you are living in a fantasy world. This game is a draw. He's IMO actually still a bit better so his draw offer is generous. Keep in mind we could also LOSE this game and it would suck big time to lose after he offered a draw.It's these last minute vote crusades that gave us a worse game in the opening. We don't need to do this anymore.> I agree.>
I agree too |
|
| Feb-24-09 | | Waitaka: Cmon, using GMAN words, this is an exibition game, so let's demonstrate the draw. Let's not assume this is a draw only because engines say so. We are accused to let engines play for us, and now we will let engines decide this is a draw? We simply don't know the truth of this position, until there is a tablebase for it. So, the position looks equal?
And what about this one?
click for larger viewLooks like a draw? |
|
Feb-24-09
 | | amadeus: Qxe5 and a draw. |
|
Feb-24-09
 | | whiteshark: This is NOT a <last minute vote crusade>! But it's the first time that we have to deal with a draw offer!! <A quitter never wins and winner never quits. <>> |
|
| Feb-24-09 | | Judah: <whiteshark: There are 356 votes so far with 61% accepting the draw offer.
So, to get a 50:50 level <37> voters have to undo the draw acceptance.> How do you make that? My calculator says <20> (by the figures you quoted in that post; 15 now). |
|
| Feb-24-09 | | 7Heaven: why is 2x 42...Qxe5 for voting? |
|
Feb-24-09
| | whiteshark: <Judah:...15 now>
I'll try it with the actual* numbers (*376 to avoid rounding differences
): 376* votes = 100%
- - -
218 votes = 58% accept
158 votes = 42% deny
- - -
188 votes = 50% level
= = =
((218-158)/2) = <30> |
|
Feb-24-09
 | | auh2o: A chess team of renowned constitution
Played forty-one moves without resolution
Though no analysis was ever neglected
For no reason a draw was rejected
So the team slaved away, day after day,
After which, black and white, with a draw, left dejected. After nine hundred pages' kibitzin'
After weeks of plottin' and Fritzin'
After Rybka is flummoxed
And with a knot in your stomach
Take the draw and give up resistin.' |
|
Feb-24-09
| | kb2ct: I hope everyone realizes that this is a very publishable game and/or ending. :0)
1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. Nf3 d6 4. d4 cxd4 5.
Nxd4 Nf6 6. Bg5 e6 7. Qd2 a6 8. O-O-O Bd7 9. f3 Be7 10. Be3 h5 11. Kb1 Qc7 12.
Nxc6 Bxc6 13. Bd3 b5 14. Ne2 Rc8 15. Nd4 Nd7 16. h3 Bb7 17. Bg5 Bxg5 18. Qxg5
Kf8 19. c3 h4 20. Rhe1 Rh6 21. Bc2 Qb6 22. Re2 Nf6 23. Bb3 Qc5 24. Qe3 Re8 25.
Red2 Rh5 26. Bc2 g6 27. Qe1 Qc7 28. Ne2 d5 29. exd5 Nxd5 30. Be4 Kg7 31. Qf2
Qe7 32. Nd4 Nf6 33. Bxb7 Qxb7 34. Nc2 Qc7 35. Ne3 Qg3 36. Qg1 Rg5 37. a3 a5 38.
Qf1 Re5 39. Rd3 Qf4 40. Re1 Nd5 41. Nxd5 exd5 42. Rxe5 Qxe5 43. Rd4 Qe1+ 44.
Qxe1 Rxe1+ 45. Ka2 Re2 46. Rxh4 Rxg2 47. Rd4 Rf2 48. Rxd5 Rxf3 49. Rxb5 Rxh3
50. Rxa5 f5 51. b4 f4 52. Ra7+ Kf6 53. Ra6+ Kf5 Kg5 54. Ra8 Kg4 55. Rf8
f3 56. a4 Kg3 57. b5 f2 58. Kb3
click for larger viewAnalysis by Rybka 2.3.2a 32-bit at 28 ply
1. = (0.05): 58...Rh1 59.a5 Rh5 60.Rxf2 Rxb5+ 61.Ka4 Rxa5+ 62.Kxa5 Kxf2 63.c4 g5 64.c5 g4 65.c6 2. ² (0.70): 58...g5 59.a5 Rh8 60.Rf6 Kg2 61.b6 f1Q 62.Rxf1 Kxf1 63.b7 g4 64.a6 g3 65.a7 Black appears to hold in Shredder's line
|
|
Feb-24-09
| | kb2ct: Both Karsten Mueller and Pal Benko would love the ending that might have been. GMAN was wise to avoid it. :0) |
|
Feb-24-09
| | lost in space: <<ganstaman>: <lost in space> What we have (or want) is time. We would continue to play out this position towards the likely draw (GMAN would be trying to draw since he believes it is drawn, so there is likely very little risk of a loss).> I don't agree. GMAN stated before the game, that he will try a new strategy to beat the world team. Offering a draw in a = and 0,00 position could easily be part of this strategy. He already influced/manipulated you in a way, that you think he will continue to play only for a draw after we decline his draw offer. Your manipulated mindset will influence sooner or later your moves. And most important - as already mentioned by <<imag>:
"And what rook endgame are you talking about? There will be no rook endgame! End of story.42...Qxe5 43.Rd2 b4 44.axb4 axb4 45.cxb4
45...Rb8 46.b5 Qf5+ 47.Rc2
and White can hold on to the extra pawn forever. Why exchange queens and lose the pawn with 47.Qd3??? Because Rybka says it's 0.00? No human would ever play that unless he is sure that he will be able to comfortably hold the rook endgame. I accepted the draw offer and I won't change my mind unless someone provides a line where White is <forced> to give up the extra pawn. I already looked at it with Rybka really deeply so good luck with that. Otherwise playing with a pawn down hoping for a win is just rude to GMAN> Can not say it better. |
|
Feb-24-09
 | | hms123: This game is a <draw> in most people's minds. We run the risk of losing at this point because of the flow of analysts and computing power to the Umansky game. It's an <exhibition game>--fine--let's exhibit some respect for our opponent. He certainly has done so for us. Let's move on. |
|
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 926 OF 931 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
