< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 3 ·
|Oct-30-08|| ||JG27Pyth: Arrgh, keep having to delete this because of typos... hopefull this is correct:|
Machphearsome:< After 18. Rc6 b6 19. Qxf7 Qb7 20. Qf4+ Ka8, 21. Rc7 wins immediately.
what do you see as the best response to
21... Bd6 in that line?
23. Qxd4 is the best line I can see, abandoning the rook and retreating the bishop. [snip]
does anybody see a better line?... >
|Oct-30-08|| ||gambitfan: I saw the first move 18 ♖c6 quite immediately...
which does not mean that I saw all possibilities of Defense...
|Oct-30-08|| ||DarthStapler: I got the first two moves|
|Oct-30-08|| ||kevin86: I missed this one-silly me,I looked for a quick checkmate or queen capture. I had no idea how the rook at h8 would be the final target.|
|Oct-30-08|| ||sshhhh: I love the way 19.Qxf7 sets up a mate threat 20.Qc7+ Ka8 21.Qc8+ Qxc8 (or Rxc8) 22.Rxc8 mate. Easily blocked (e.g. by Bd6 as in the game), and only really threatening in conjunction with dzechiel's 20.Qf4+, but I think the mate, with double check from rook and bishop, is really pretty.|
|Oct-30-08|| ||TCS: My positional analysis would be
1. Once again a massive imbalance between centralised White and de-centralised Black. Until Black castled there were no pieces pointing at the centre squares! 2. Black's King is hemmed in and only the King and Rook are defending 3. White is threatening mate with Qxb7 or Qxf7 picking up pawns and potentially pieces with Qxf8 4. Black has a weak passed pawn
5. Black's back rank is weak
Its obvious that deflecting the Queen from the defence of b7 is going to aid White and this is neatly achieved with 18.Rc6 making use of the Queen pin on b7
Black's choices are limited becuase of the risk of losing the Queen or mate. The only option is to play 18...b7 which solves the immediate mate threat but now isolates the Queen.
Worse is that 19. Qxf7 now opens up mates with either Qc7+ or Qf4+.
The only way to cover both of these squares is 19...Bd6 which looks like a miracle move as it is protected by the Rook. In this case
20.Rxd6! Here Black's choices are to accept the loss with Nf6 or recapturing with 20...Rxd6.
The recapture just means that White Queen can munch another pawn and probably the rook after Qf8+ and Qxg7+
20...Nf6 doesn't help either after 21.Qxg7.
|Oct-30-08|| ||TCS: Looking at the whole game why did Black lose so quickly?|
One reason is 6 Queen moves in the first 15 with the associated loss of tempi and a final resting place of a6 although to be fair to the Queen she was stopping White castleing.
|Oct-30-08|| ||mworld: wow, i got this one in a few seconds, although i really should have spent a bit more time evaluating my own king safety - this week must be easier than usual.|
|Oct-30-08|| ||lost in space: LHM, just saw that ther is a much better line than the one I posted:|
18. Rc6 b6 19. Qxf7 Qb7 20. Qf4+ Ka8
21. Rc7! and there is no way out got Black
Have not checked, if someone found this line alredy.
|Oct-30-08|| ||zb2cr: I'm trying to think why so many have confessed to having trouble seeing the defense 18. ... b6. To me, it seemed obvious. I'm going to write down a simulation of what I would imagine Black's thought process to be:|
"His move was 18. Rc6. What is his threat or threats? The most immediate is that my Queen's attacked.
Back to first principles. I can't ignore this threat. I'll think about making a counter-threat later--first, can I deal with the attack? Again, 3 ways of dealing with the threat--capture the attacking piece, move away the threatened piece, or stick something in between.
Can I capture? The b-Pawn is pinned. I can't take the flipping Rook with my Queen, as his Bishop would recapture and I'm down Queen for Rook.
Does 18. ... Qa5 work--the Queen's out of danger there. So what does White reply? Oh, rotgut--19. Rc8+ gets the Rook out of the way of the White Bishop, and whether I take with King or Rook, his next is 20. Qxb7#. Other squares for the Queen to move to--nope, looks like the Rook check works in all cases.
Can I stick something in between? Eureka! 18. ... b6. Okay, but I also need to go back and look to see if I could also offer a counterthreat. Hmmm. No, can't see any. Looks like 18. ... b6 is it."
I offer this up as a possible aid to others. A disciplined thought process may enable you to find moves you might not otherwise see.
|Oct-30-08|| ||YouRang: The mating potential at b7 is pretty obvious. The mate is being stopped only by black's queen, so any effort to dislodge that queen should be given strong consideration.|
With that effort in mind, the move which leaps to the eye quickest is 18.Rc6!, hitting the queen and exploiting the pinned b-pawn. If black wants to keep his queen, he has little choice but 18...b6. This has some side effects: (1) our rook is no longer in take by either the pawn or the queen, (2) the point of having our queen on the b-file is somewhat deflated.
The obvious strong move now is 19.Qxf7, picking up a pawn and threatening 20.Qc7~#. Interfering with 19...Be7 or 19...Ne7 seems to lose to 20.Qf4+, but 19...Bd6 (guarding c7) seems like a decent defense.
At this point, I got a bit nervous. I considered 20.Qxg7, but black has counter-attack with 20...Re8+. I suppose I can block with my bishop (21.Be4), but it gets complicated.
I decided to keep my queen at f7 to prevent ...Re8 and instead try the exchange sac 20.Rxd6 Rxd6. I shortly discovered that I can get it all back with interest via 21.Qf8+! (forking K+R) Kc7 (guard R) 22.Qxg7+ (forking K+other R) .
|Oct-30-08|| ||al wazir: <macphearsome: <After 18. Rc6 b6 19. Qxf7 Qb7 20. Qf4+ Ka8, 21. Rc7 wins immediately.> what do you see as the best response to 21... Bd6 in that line?>|
22. Qxd6! The black ♕ is still pinned. If 22...Rxd6, then 23. Rc8#. If 22...Qxf3, then 23. Qxd8#. If 22...Rb8, then 23. Rxb7 Rxb7 24. Qd8#. If 22...Nf6, then 23. Bxb7+ Kb8 24. Rd7#.
|Oct-30-08|| ||AlaskaksalA: Hello! This is my first post here; I have enjoyed these puzzles for months, however.|
I am just trying to understand when to consider this (or any)puzzle 'solved.' Was the resignation at this point because of the capture of the H8 Rook after any king move out of check?
White is up B+P, but still has to spend a move castling while his Knight and two pawns are hanging and black has a passed center pawn deep in his turf...
I was just hoping someone could point out a mate I missed post-move22, or if there was another huge material gain just around the corner.
Thank you, good to be here!
|Oct-30-08|| ||zb2cr: To <AlaskaksalA>,
Welcome! You're correct in that after the capture of the Black Rook at h8, White will be up by B+P, normally a killing edge between strong players.
Most puzzles here can be considered solved if you arrive at mate or a decisive material edge.
Here, Black's position is hanging by a thread, besides his material deficit. After 22. ... Rd7; 23. Qxh8 White may have Pawns hanging but Black has a Knight he has to save.
|Oct-30-08|| ||aginis: 18.Rc6 Re8+ 19.Kd1 Qa5 how to continue?|
|Oct-30-08|| ||YouRang: <AlaskaksalA: Hello! This is my first post here; I have enjoyed these puzzles for months, however.
I am just trying to understand when to consider this (or any)puzzle 'solved.' Was the resignation at this point because of the capture of the H8 Rook after any king move out of check?|
White is up B+P, but still has to spend a move castling while his Knight and two pawns are hanging and black has a passed center pawn deep in his turf...>
I think that yes, black resigned since he will be down a B+P after white takes the h8 rook. Beyond that, black's knight will also be in danger, so black will have to continue playing defensively. If, say, 22...Rd7 23.Qxh8 Re7+ 24.Be4 Re8 (guard N), then our Q emerges from h8 with 25.Qxh7+ and perhaps 25...Kd8 26.b3 Nf6 27.Qh4 and black is simply bad.
|Oct-30-08|| ||Once: <AlaskaksalA> Welcome! I hope you will enjoy it here at Chessgames. We are a fairly friendly bunch, once you get used to some of our little ideosyncrasies.|
You've asked a great question for your first post. Sometimes a puzzle is solved because it leads to a checkmate or a decisive gain of material. Or, very occasionally, the point of a puzzle is to find a combination that draws in an otherwise difficult/ losing position.
Some of the puzzles have a very forcing continuation that ends the game quickly. Others lead to a pleasant advantage for one side, although the game may linger on for many moves after the puzzle position.
How much you need to see for each position will depend on you. Variation hounds will want to spend ages on a position to unearth all of the variations. More pragmatic (or lazy) souls will be happy to spot just the first few moves, especially if they would have had confidence to play the start of the winning line in real life. Once you have a strong attack, you don't need to calculate to a forced mate. The rest will come to you as you go along.
But most of all, just have fun. Although with a username like yours, I am very glad of cut and paste!
|Oct-30-08|| ||YouRang: <aginis: 18.Rc6 Re8+ 19.Kd1 Qa5 how to continue?>|
Then 20.Re6!, threatening Rxe8+ and Qxb7#.
|Oct-30-08|| ||The Low Aviator: Wow... 18. Rc6 was crushing, followed by 17. ... Qxf7!|
|Oct-30-08|| ||Once: <aginis 18.Rc6 Re8+ 19.Kd1 Qa5 how to continue?> |
20. Re6 looks pretty terminal to me. Attacks the Re8 and uncovers the threat of mate on b7. Fritz 11 reckons that it is mate in 17 from here.
|Oct-30-08|| ||Shams: <aginis> 20.Nc4 looks tough to meet|
|Oct-30-08|| ||YouRang: <AlaskaksalA><I am just trying to understand when to consider this (or any)puzzle 'solved.' >|
That's been the topic of several spirited discussions over the years. :-)
The administrator's answer is "find the best move (or line of moves)".
Of course, there can be some debate over how one defines "best", or even if it indeed has a consistent definition that works in all cases.
In one sense, it's a moot point, since some people solve it in their heads, some set it up on a board (real or virtual) and move pieces around. Besides that, we're (almost) all anonymous and there's nobody keeping score and nobody to make sure we're not "cheating".
So, IMHO, you're free to make your own definition! Your definition should be whatever makes puzzle solving enjoyable for you (that is, after all, the real goal). Naturally, if you make your definition more demanding, it becomes more difficult, but also more rewarding in terms of improving your chess skills.
Here's mine: I analyze the puzzle in my head (as if I arrived at this position OTB). I decide what the best possible outcome should be (win or sometimes draw), and then try to find a way to make that outcome fairly obvious. That is, I try to bring clarity to the position.
I am generally not so concerned about finding the "fastest" solution. A win is a win, whether it's mate in 5 or mate in 25 (and sometimes the longer mate is easier to see, more fun, and provokes a quicker resignation). When done, I write up my experience, for better or worse.
If I feel like I failed to solve a puzzle I should have solved, I add the puzzle to my collection: Game Collection: Puzzles I should have solved, but didn't :-(
|Oct-30-08|| ||yoozum: I have to be honest and say that I completely missed this one.|
|Oct-30-08|| ||YouRang: <AlaskaksalA> Oh I get it now.|
|Oct-30-08|| ||YouRang: Or should I say, PALINdrome!|
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